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Thread: CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

  1. #76
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Joe - Takahashi fell on his quad attempt. Other than that his LP was pretty near flawless as I recall. He definitely nailed the showmanship part of the program, though. Definitely the most fun to watch.

    Aside from the top three, I don't remember the competition. All I really remember is being floored at 11pm when it was announced that Plushenko was second. My jaw dropped. I still feel Evan skated for second believing it was Evgeny's to win. And I really believed that so long as Plushenko stayed on his feet he'd win. Knew the quad would keep Takahashi from first, I think the right folks made the podium... maybe not in the right order though...

  2. #77
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=seniorita;560399]Schultheiss that I finally learnt to spell his name and did a great quad.
    Are we ressurecting the dead horses because it is Easter?[/QUOTE]

    seniorita you are to funny!

  3. #78
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^^
    Toni - Thanks for reminding me of Dai's Fall. I knew there was something that made me think, he just killed his gold. I do not remember Takahito at all. As for Evan and Plush, I was just as shocked as everyone else. After his boring 2006 Gold, I had lost some interest in Plush, and thought Dai had a chance here. Shame on me, but I didn't even think of Evan on the podium. It all changed as I watch the comp. It could have been Plush or Evan. The Protocols will tell more. I don't like reading them.

  4. #79
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    Dai had two jumps ur'ed (the quad and one of his triples in the 3-3 combo). He actually placed fifth in the LP, behind Lysacek, Plushenko, Lambiel and Chan.

  5. #80
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The UR call on the combination was definitely wrong. Oh boy here we go again. Takahashi's toeloop technique is such that he leaves the ice early and pre-rotates far less than normal. If you look at his rotation in the air, it was equal to or greater than similar jumps that were not called as underrotated. His 3Toe in combination was only UR if you don't look at where he actually took off on the ice.

    His Quad was borderline when taking that into consideration as well. I don't think it deserved to be called, when you look at how the rules used to treat slightly UR jumps as a full half-turn short in terms of the scoring. Takahashi's Quad was a solid attempt as far as a fall goes - tons of speed going in, lots of height, and a lot of distance covered. He deserved to win even if that element was given 0 points, though (Kozuka's LP would then be better in my eyes, but Takahashi had a lead from the SP).
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 04-17-2011 at 03:32 PM.

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    As his program was scored, the two URs + the fall destroyed his chances at gold. That's why he came third.

    I thought the quad was ur'ed in real time on TV, but as you said, jumps that end poorly are more likely to be called ur'ed as opposed to landed ones regardless of the amount of in-air rotation.

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    As I recall, Plushy front-loaded his jumps, which cost him points. Considering the narrow margin by which he lost, one additional triple toward the end of the program would have tipped the balance in his favor. I remember people commenting that unlike Lysacek, Plushenko didn't make the CoP system work for him as much as he could have.

  8. #83
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    Evan did one more triple than Plushy and with his clearly better spins that was more than enough to negate ONE quad jump in the LP.

    Tim Goebel did three quad jumps back in his 2002 LP and he should have won Silver, atleast according to Plushy's own standard that clearly states "quad jump beats anything."

    I think the the judges were right to give Plushy the Silver back in 2002 just like they were generous to give it to him again in 2010.

    I must agree with Blades and if I was judging Dai would have won the OGM.

    mathman may not like this, but Lori did NOT do the choreo for Plushy or Dai in 2010. She did do it for Evan just as she did it for Patrick this season.

    Something smells rotten when a big time choreographer/COACH is also the one telling judges how to score the CoP.

    Wouldn't it be nice if the pitching coach for the Phillies was advising baseball umpires how to call balls and strikes

    How about a World Cup with Brazilian referees determining which fouls deserve a yellow or red card. Heck, half of Holland's team would have been off the field by halftime if soccer was a sleasy as figure skating.

    Somehow the "sport" of figure skating sees nothing wrong when Lori is coaching judges about how to score the CoP. Most other sports would see a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

    Is it really possible that last season a certain choerographer never mentioned to judges that Evan has a "better CoP program" than Plushy

    Judges are human and so are choreographer/coaches and skaters.

    The playing field hardly seems level to me. It is the difference between pageants and real sport.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-17-2011 at 03:58 PM.

  9. #84
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I think Goebel did deserve Silver in 2002. He had more technical content than Plushy and even though his basic skating ability was lesser, his program was a far better one. That was Goebel's best performance and probably the first time he truly gave a commendable performance. He was too un-annointed for the judges to comprehend the value of what he did, though. Notice how at the World Championships a month later, with an Olympic medal in hand, Goebel's presentation marks suddenly jumped up significantly even though it was a lesser performance than at the Olympics.

    Back to what you said about the North American commentary and Evan, that's so true. I AWAYS thought Takahashi and Kozuka deserved Gold and Silver, but the day of the Olympics I thought Evan (barely) deserved to beat Plushenko in that head-to-head. After Plushenko's artistically terrible SP, I was very much against him and bought into the idea that Lysacek was the "more well rounded skater". I didn't even really prefer Lysacek's LP, and saw the two of them as pretty much even in that segment of the competition, but thought Lysacek should have been ahead overall because of the SP.

    Watching again shortly therefore, it become apparent just how empty Lysacek's performance was and that I let the North American commentary and my own dislike of Plushenko's SP cloud my objective judgement of Plushenko's LP. He was certainly better than Lysacek. Much was made of his frontloaded jumps and yet Plushenko's jump layout was more spread throughout the program than Lyscaek's. He may have opened with 4 jumping passes in a row rather than 3, but then after that the program was more dedicated to performing than jumping. Lysacek, on the other hand, did 5 jumping passes in a row right after the half-way mark and did not really perform, except for a few moments at the end of the program...but he didn't even finish in time with the music. Throughout the whole program Plushenko's interpretation was better as well. Look at how Lysacek's circular footwork had nothing to do with the music (which was Plushenko's problem in the SP, where his movements mostly had nothing to do with the music). That circular footwork sequence of Lysacek's, by the way, received a Level 4 call which was NOT deserved.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I think Goebel did deserve Silver in 2002. He had more technical content than Plushy and even though his basic skating ability was lesser, his program was a far better one. That was Goebel's best performance and probably the first time he truly gave a commendable performance. He was too un-annointed for the judges to comprehend the value of what he did, though. Notice how at the World Championships a month later, with an Olympic medal in hand, Goebel's presentation marks suddenly jumped up significantly even though it was a lesser performance than at the Olympics.

    Back to what you said about the North American commentary and Evan, that's so true. I AWAYS thought Takahashi and Kozuka deserved Gold and Silver, but the day of the Olympics I thought Evan (barely) deserved to beat Plushenko in that head-to-head. After Plushenko's artistically terrible SP, I was very much against him and bought into the idea that Lysacek was the "more well rounded skater". I didn't even really prefer Lysacek's LP, and saw the two of them as pretty much even in that segment of the competition, but thought Lysacek should have been ahead overall because of the SP.

    Watching again shortly therefore, it become apparent just how empty Lysacek's performance was and that I let the North American commentary and my own dislike of Plushenko's SP cloud my objective judgement of Plushenko's LP. He was certainly better than Lysacek. Much was made of his frontloaded jumps and yet Plushenko's jump layout was more spread throughout the program than Lyscaek's. He may have opened with 4 jumping passes in a row rather than 3, but then after that the program was more dedicated to performing than jumping. Lysacek, on the other hand, did 5 jumping passes in a row right after the half-way mark and did not really perform, except for a few moments at the end of the program...but he didn't even finish in time with the music. Throughout the whole program Plushenko's interpretation was better as well. Look at how Lysacek's circular footwork had nothing to do with the music (which was Plushenko's problem in the SP, where his movements mostly had nothing to do with the music). That circular footwork sequence of Lysacek's, by the way, received a Level 4 call which was NOT deserved.
    Wow, the evidence of the axis of the earth's changing. BOP, this earthquake of yours must be making GS change axis.

    May I question some of your takes on Goebel? I've rewatched both Plushenko and Goebel's 2002 Olympics LPs.

    Plushenko:
    4T + 3T + 3L (step-out)
    4T
    3A half loop 3F
    3A
    3Lz
    2A
    2S (by mistake. supposed to be 3S)

    Goebel:
    3Lz
    4S + 3T
    3A + 2T
    4T
    3A (step-out)
    4S
    3F
    3L

    Even though, Goebel has had one more quad than Plushenko. I don't see big differences between these two skaters jumps. As you said, Goebel's basic skating abilities was lesser. Most importantly, Goebel is far, far behind in artistic abilities compare to the two big giants of that era - Yagudin and Plushenko. Goebel was definitely not in the same league with those two. Heaven and earth. There was absolutely no way that with that robotic, dry skating of Goebel's in SP and LP, Goebel would be able to get silver, even though Plushenko was in 4th in SP. There was only one person who could be able to beat Plushenko. That was Takashi Honda. But he bombed in LP. I'm so glad that the podium order was it was! Otherwise, it would have left far more heartbreaks for so many than what 2010 Olympics had done.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-17-2011 at 11:27 PM.

  11. #86
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I, too, thought Tim deserved to be higher. I've never gotten Plushenko's "artistry". Plush should have been lower in the SP - or at least, that's how I felt at the time. I haven't watched those skates in eons.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Joe - Takahashi fell on his quad attempt. Other than that his LP was pretty near flawless as I recall. He definitely nailed the showmanship part of the program, though. Definitely the most fun to watch.

    Aside from the top three, I don't remember the competition. All I really remember is being floored at 11pm when it was announced that Plushenko was second. My jaw dropped. I still feel Evan skated for second believing it was Evgeny's to win. And I really believed that so long as Plushenko stayed on his feet he'd win. Knew the quad would keep Takahashi from first, I think the right folks made the podium... maybe not in the right order though...
    Lysacek was not skating for second. He won worlds with that layout and jumps and every second was programmed to win and it did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Evan did one more triple than Plushy and with his clearly better spins that was more than enough to negate ONE quad jump in the LP.

    Tim Goebel did three quad jumps back in his 2002 LP and he should have won Silver, atleast according to Plushy's own standard that clearly states "quad jump beats anything."

    I think the the judges were right to give Plushy the Silver back in 2002 just like they were generous to give it to him again in 2010.

    I must agree with Blades and if I was judging Dai would have won the OGM.

    mathman may not like this, but Lori did NOT do the choreo for Plushy or Dai in 2010. She did do it for Evan just as she did it for Patrick this season.

    Something smells rotten when a big time choreographer/COACH is also the one telling judges how to score the CoP.

    Wouldn't it be nice if the pitching coach for the Phillies was advising baseball umpires how to call balls and strikes

    How about a World Cup with Brazilian referees determining which fouls deserve a yellow or red card. Heck, half of Holland's team would have been off the field by halftime if soccer was a sleasy as figure skating.

    Somehow the "sport" of figure skating sees nothing wrong when Lori is coaching judges about how to score the CoP. Most other sports would see a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

    Is it really possible that last season a certain choerographer never mentioned to judges that Evan has a "better CoP program" than Plushy

    Judges are human and so are choreographer/coaches and skaters.

    The playing field hardly seems level to me. It is the difference between pageants and real sport.
    One quad jump is not as good as one more triple jump? And it was not just a quad it was a quad/triple. It is something about the COP system in place in 2010 and the whole media hype that meant doing a quad/triple was not really something that was good or impressive or moved a skater to a different level like it did under 6.0 judging. Would Lysacek have had those spins if he tried a quad or a quad triple????

    Otherwise I agree why is a choreographer working for skaters saying what is good choreo for the system. They should be totally retired or forced to.

    About the Costas Lysacek interview the whole thing was just horrible and grotesque. Seeing someone not engage in the discussion like Lysacek was not engaging in it. You win an Olympic gold medal without a quad when the previous three did and it doesn't mean anything??
    Last edited by gmyers; 04-18-2011 at 12:11 AM.

  13. #88
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Lysacek was not skating for second. He won worlds with that layout and jumps and every second was programmed to win and it did.
    I wasn't talking content or layout, I'm talking about his performance... he seemed to be holding his passion back a bit...

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    Cup of China, Skate America, GPF, Olympics - all seemed the same to me! Even at the end of the 2010 Olympics FS you had the exact same thing as 2009 worlds FS. Choreographed fist pumps while spinning.

  15. #90
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Lysacek was not skating for second. He won worlds with that layout and jumps and every second was programmed to win and it did.
    Lysacek won Worlds in a weak field and that wouldn't have happened in the first place if Joubert had delivered. It was never expected that Lysacek without a Quad could ever beat another top skater (especially Plushenko) if those competitors skated well and included a Quad. He did indeed skate for second, just focusing on the elements to ensure the technical points, rather than trying to put passion into the performance to make a case for why he deserved Gold. He knew that a clean performance would almost surely give him at least 2nd because Takahashi hadn't delivered a great LP all season and everyone else was too far behind after the SP.

    Thus, Lysacek hedged his bets on Plushenko not delivering. Which he didn't, in comparison to his normal standard, but then Lysacek didn't deliver either. Luckily for Lysacek, he played the game just right and the judges went with it. Plushenko established himself as a deteriorated skater, outside of the jumps, after his SP and thus he no longer had any wiggle room for mistakes. Lysacek, as reigning World Champ and the GPF Champ of the season and superior to Plushenko in the non-jump areas in the SP, became the viable alternative. It's sad that the sport is judged SO much on momentum and reputation, though, because in the LP it was actually the reverse. Plushenko's performance was an improvement over the SP and Lysacek's was a withered one.

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