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Thread: CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

  1. #91
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Oh, sorry, I missed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    May I question some of your takes on Goebel? I've rewatched both Plushenko and Goebel's 2002 Olympics LPs.

    Plushenko:
    4T + 3T + 3L (step-out)
    4T
    3A half loop 3F
    3A
    3Lz
    2A
    2S (by mistake. supposed to be 3S)

    Goebel:
    3Lz
    4S + 3T
    3A + 2T
    4T
    3A (step-out)
    4S
    3F
    3L

    Even though, Goebel has had one more quad than Plushenko. I don't see big differences between these two skaters jumps. As you said, Goebel's basic skating abilities was lesser. Most importantly, Goebel is far, far behind in artistic abilities compare to the two big giants of that era - Yagudin and Plushenko. Goebel was definitely not in the same league with those two. Heaven and earth.
    The impressive thing about Goebel's jump layout is not just the 3 Quads, but how late in the program many of his jumping passes came. His second Triple Axel was 60% of the way through the program. His second Quad Salchow was 75% of the way through the program. He did a Triple Loop at the very end of his program, proceeded by a hydroblade. In comparison, Plushenko did all of his difficult jumping passes in the first 40% of the program. Goebel also only made 1 mistake in comparison to 2 from Plushenko.

    I don't agree with Plushenko being superior on the second mark in this instance either. I think Plushenko's basic skating was better and I think in terms of raw performance ability he was better, but I feel that Goebel had a far better program. Goebel's movements reflected the nuances of the music better, there was more inbetween choreography, a better balance of elements throughout the performance, and the program as a whole called for a greater range of character and built to something more meaningful in the end. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. In comparison, Plushenko's program was much more limited. He had wonderful dramatic posing, wonderful flow across the ice, and wonderful moments of explosive energy...but it didn't really come together. The best highlights were contained to the first half of the program only. If his footwork had been stronger then it would have been a somewhat different story but his footwork sequences were simplistic and lacked creativity.

    Hence, I would have given Goebel a 5.9/5.8 and Plushenko a 5.8/5.8

  2. #92
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    Lori Nichol choreography. The woman is a genius.

    The only thing Tim always seemed to lack was good posture--his body just didn't work that way--and he gave even that his best effort. Maybe those narrow shoulders are what gave him such unearthly torque. He never even looked as if he was using any muscle power. He just hopped into the air and twirled like an electric drill.
    Last edited by Olympia; 04-18-2011 at 06:35 AM.

  3. #93
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I, too, thought Tim deserved to be higher. I've never gotten Plushenko's "artistry". Plush should have been lower in the SP - or at least, that's how I felt at the time. I haven't watched those skates in eons.
    if you get Lysacek's passion and artistry in that Lp, it is hard to get Evgeni's also For me it is bananas and watermelons. in Vancouver an almost Perfect Lysacek=60% detoriated old Plush + 1.2 points. Its all about maths

    Blades what i liked in SLC is Plushenko's ultra speed and the come back from Sp, the risks he took for the axel combo and 4-3-3 and for a new program, it was first time ever skated and that in Olympics. After that he skated a great Carmen 724517817 times in Champions On Ice tour. Goebels was maybe the best I ve seen him, as Worlds 2003 also. But he is slow and has bad posture.

  4. #94
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Lots of opining on Evgeni and Tim. IMO, I never thought either of them were the Ideal Figure Skater. Both of them were extraordinary jumpers. I picked Tim over Evgeni because his routine was better choreographed. Over and Out on this comparison.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    To be honest if I had just won the gold medal in Olympics I would speak about flowers and bees to Mr Costas (does he have a greek root? his name is greek 100%) and let the silver and below competitors pulling their hair out
    True. It was so easy to be generous and it's a common practice to go on high road after you won.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    but I feel that Goebel had a far better program. Goebel's movements reflected the nuances of the music better, there was more inbetween choreography, a better balance of elements throughout the performance, and the program as a whole called for a greater range of character and built to something more meaningful in the end. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. In comparison, Plushenko's program was much more limited. He had wonderful dramatic posing, wonderful flow across the ice, and wonderful moments of explosive energy...but it didn't really come together.
    I feel like that you were portraying something else other than Goebel and Plushenko's 2002 Olympic LPs.

    I don't get it how Goebel's routine was better choreographed? To me, it was highly robotic and dull with rough connections between elements, and unexpressive arms and hands. Everytime when Goebel were preparing for a jump, his arms were dangling down like they were not his. Only Kevin Reynolds could be compared to Goebel. I'd take Lysacek's artistry and windmill arms anyday if I were to choose between Goebel and Lysacek.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-18-2011 at 11:42 AM.

  6. #96
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    if you get Lysacek's passion and artistry in that Lp, it is hard to get Evgeni's also
    I've never enjoyed a skater who stops and does a bunch of poses/footwork in one place... Plushenko did a lot of that back in the day. As does Elvis Stojko (who is the least creative skater out there, he makes Kevin Van Der Perren look like an artistic genius!). I've seen Evan skate in person several times. I don't prefer Evan 2010 to Evan 2005 or 2006 or even 2008... he did everything so frank carroll calculated. That formula finally paid off, but at what cost? Frank produces zombie skates, IMO. Yeah they're near perfect but they have no heart.

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    You don't think Michelle shows heart? We'll have to disagree on that one.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I don't get it how Goebel's routine was better choreographed? To me, it was highly robotic and dull with rough connections between elements, and unexpressive arms and hands. Everytime when Goebel were preparing for a jump, his arms were dangling down like they were not his. Only Kevin Reynolds could be compared to Goebel. I'd take Lysacek's artistry and windmill arms anyday if I were to choose between Goebel and Lysacek.
    I don't think his programme was ill constructed. The robot you've seen could be the skater and not the choreo. Not everyone skates an interesting choreographed program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Lysacek won Worlds in a weak field and that wouldn't have happened in the first place if Joubert had delivered. It was never expected that Lysacek without a Quad could ever beat another top skater (especially Plushenko) if those competitors skated well and included a Quad. He did indeed skate for second, just focusing on the elements to ensure the technical points, rather than trying to put passion into the performance to make a case for why he deserved Gold. He knew that a clean performance would almost surely give him at least 2nd because Takahashi hadn't delivered a great LP all season and everyone else was too far behind after the SP.

    Thus, Lysacek hedged his bets on Plushenko not delivering. Which he didn't, in comparison to his normal standard, but then Lysacek didn't deliver either. Luckily for Lysacek, he played the game just right and the judges went with it. Plushenko established himself as a deteriorated skater, outside of the jumps, after his SP and thus he no longer had any wiggle room for mistakes. Lysacek, as reigning World Champ and the GPF Champ of the season and superior to Plushenko in the non-jump areas in the SP, became the viable alternative. It's sad that the sport is judged SO much on momentum and reputation, though, because in the LP it was actually the reverse. Plushenko's performance was an improvement over the SP and Lysacek's was a withered one.
    World Champion Joubert was at 2009 worlds and it Chan had done really well at 4CC-it was a very tough competition. Just because Takahashi was out doesn't mean 2009 worlds was bad. No one was saying that Plushenko could land everything -which he did and not win! But all of that was wrong. Worlds 2008 and 2009 and the GPF in 2009 and 4CC in 2009 all were indicating that the programs that were winning were all triple programs with backloaded jumps and focus on fast spins and transitions. Only when Plushenko came back with his RELIABLE quad and 3A ability - reliable the key word- were all the performances that were winning tossed aside but what was winning won the Olympics in 2010. And I can't find anyone who thought that Plushenko could nail all his elements - which he did= and lose. Worlds 2009 was not weak at all. And its possible that had Plushenko or Takahashi been there they would have lost to Lysacek there too as they did in Vancouver with the exact same program- as Lysacek did not change anything about his program from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010 jump wise layout wise.

  10. #100
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    World Champion Joubert was at 2009 worlds and it Chan had done really well at 4CC-it was a very tough competition. Just because Takahashi was out doesn't mean 2009 worlds was bad. No one was saying that Plushenko could land everything -which he did and not win! But all of that was wrong. Worlds 2008 and 2009 and the GPF in 2009 and 4CC in 2009 all were indicating that the programs that were winning were all triple programs with backloaded jumps and focus on fast spins and transitions. Only when Plushenko came back with his RELIABLE quad and 3A ability - reliable the key word- were all the performances that were winning tossed aside but what was winning won the Olympics in 2010. And I can't find anyone who thought that Plushenko could nail all his elements - which he did= and lose. Worlds 2009 was not weak at all. And its possible that had Plushenko or Takahashi been there they would have lost to Lysacek there too as they did in Vancouver with the exact same program- as Lysacek did not change anything about his program from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010 jump wise layout wise.
    Why would Evan change? He won '09 Worlds, then the GPF and then the Olympic Gold Medal.
    Anyone can get lucky once, but when you win three times in a row you are not lucky but the acknowledged King of your sport.

    Evan is the current King of Men's figure skating. The CoP coronated King Evan and he will hold that title until 2014.

    Enjoy, enjoy.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    And its possible that had Plushenko or Takahashi been there they would have lost to Lysacek there too as they did in Vancouver with the exact same program- as Lysacek did not change anything about his program from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010 jump wise layout wise.
    I don't see how. It means that Plushenko's score would have decreased from 258 to less than 242. Let's not forget that Evan's score at the Olys was 14 points higher than in 2009.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Why would Evan change? He won '09 Worlds, then the GPF and then the Olympic Gold Medal.
    Anyone can get lucky once, but when you win three times in a row you are not lucky but the acknowledged King of your sport.

    Evan is the current King of Men's figure skating. The CoP coronated King Evan and he will hold that title until 2014.

    Enjoy, enjoy.
    A lot of this is my point just in different words. 100% pro Lysacek uberfan words.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    I don't see how. It means that Plushenko's score would have decreased from 258 to less than 242. Let's not forget that Evan's score at the Olys was 14 points higher than in 2009.
    I am going to say there was Olympic inflation and there could have been inflation of lysacek score at 2009 worlds so he could beat him.

  13. #103
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    One time Champions - Hughes, Lysacek have every right to retire from competitive skating. They've met their goals. Sorry Plush, you can't even this up. However, you did win one Oly. If you want to make it a fourth try for a second Oly gold in 2014 by all means go for it. I'm with you.

    Spinal problems which I know all too well will keep Tim from skating.

  14. #104
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I've never enjoyed a skater who stops and does a bunch of poses/footwork in one place... Plushenko did a lot of that back in the day. As does Elvis Stojko (who is the least creative skater out there, he makes Kevin Van Der Perren look like an artistic genius!). I've seen Evan skate in person several times. I don't prefer Evan 2010 to Evan 2005 or 2006 or even 2008... he did everything so frank carroll calculated. That formula finally paid off, but at what cost? Frank produces zombie skates, IMO. Yeah they're near perfect but they have no heart.
    I read somewhere that Yagudin was wearing his heart on his sleeve, that is why he was so expressive and emotional. And I agree 100%. Lambiel also. Kwan also. Browning also. With them it is obvious. With many skaters it is not such obvious. Evgeni for example and many more skaters. But when they skate you know it is them and none other, they leave a piece of them on the ice. Skaters are like radio frequencies, you need to tune your antenna to sync with them. Stojko has a frequency I ll never get but even if his skating is the least fav of mine aesthetically, I can see his personal signature, especially in the early programs.Either you tune in with Stojko or Weir, you know that what they show can hardly be skated the same way by anyone else. And then I have a category of skaters they dont have any frequency, they take a program and execute it like we take a recipe and make it a cake.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Skaters are like radio frequencies, you need to tune your antenna to sync with them.
    This is so true. We all have our favourite skaters because their performances / styles / whatever somehow resonate with us personally. It is hard to find a skater universally resonates with just about every fan, and I am not surprised if a performance which is so dear to me means nothing to someone else. It's all personal; it is perhaps more to do with my personal history, experiences, cultural background, nurtured tastes, etc, than the skaters themselves.

    As there have been a lot of talk about Evan in this thread, I thought I'd contribute a small piece of information - I think Daisuke Takahashi is one of the biggest fans of Evan amongst Japanese skaters, at least. He often names Evan as one of his arch-rivals whose style he admires. He lists Evan as his favourite skater who has a good balance between technical proficiency and an ability to perform and project, along with Stephane, Jeff Buttle, Tomas Verner and Michal Brezina. (Hence, I believe, his comment at the last Worlds - 'I miss Stephane and Evan.') I wonder if he syncs with something Evan's got that some posters here cannot?

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