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Thread: Plushenko seeks amateur status in Olympics bid

  1. #16
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    I say good for him as long as everything is legal without causing problems, now or down the road, for the organizations and other skaters. Whoever does the best on the day wins. ISU has only set minimum age but not maximum. There is also no rule to exclude bionic men.

  2. #17
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    "competitive" is the replacement term for "amateur". the difference between "competitive/amateur" and "professional" is olympic eligibility, nothing more (well, that and the pros don't answer to the ISU)
    And it has nothing to do with Money?? As for the Olympics, so many of the athletes earn money. There should be 2 classes of athletes as either competitive or professional. The OIC and the ISU should agree on their terms of reference. Anyway, looking to see Plushy again.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that the International Olympic Committee officially did away with the distinction between amateur and professional just in time for the 1992 games in Barcelona. This allowed the "Dream Team" to compete -- the U.S. basketball team featuring NBA players Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. (The U.S. had gotten tired of their college boys being beaten by "students," "soldiers," etc., from Soviet bloc countries.)

    Now I think the rule is that each international sports body sets the rules for Olympic eligibility for its own sport. I believe that boxing is the only Olympic sport that still has "amateurs" and "professionals." (And even "amateurs" can earn money.)

    In the case of figure skating, you can make as much mney as you want, but can compete only in ISU sanctioned events. For instance, you can't compete in pro-am cheesefest competitions unless the organizer of the event agrees to use ISU scoring rules and slips the ISU a little something under the table.

    Also, you can't play sick and then skate in shows when you are supposed to be skating in ISU events like the Grand Prix and the World Championships. (It's OK, though, if you miraculously get well the day after the ISU event and skate in a show.)
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-15-2011 at 08:16 PM.

  4. #19
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    And it has nothing to do with Money?? As for the Olympics, so many of the athletes earn money. There should be 2 classes of athletes as either competitive or professional. The OIC and the ISU should agree on their terms of reference. Anyway, looking to see Plushy again.
    It hasn't been a distinction of money since 1994 when professional skaters like Boitano and G&G and Witt all came back to skate in Lillehammer. "Professional" is the term used for the retired from competition/tour skaters. Their "profession" is not sport but entertainment. The "competitive/amateur" skaters make money on sponsors and winnings and only "tour" in the off season. It's been this way for over two decades now (Kurt Browning fought his federation way back when in the 80s to be allowed to receive sponsorship money and keep it in a trust fund. Other skaters followed suit. He probably wasn't the first amateur to find that loophole, but he's the only one I know about to reference lol).

  5. #20
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    Nowadays even very young "eligible" skaters can make money while competing. Remember that when Kimmie Meissner became a surprise world champion, she got a few lucrative ad campaigns, including Subway sandwiches. Michelle Kwan earned quite a bit during her long career, which is doubtless why she was able to have such a long career.

    I think the champion of all time is probably YuNa, who went directly from abject poverty to unimaginable riches, thanks to media superstardom in Korea in ads for almost every product line manufactured in the country, plus a singing/music video career. Mao Asada is likewise a queen of all media in Japan. In my opinion, it couldn't happen to two nicer ladies; more power to them! It doesn't seem to affect their skating in any bad way, and their nationwide appeal surely increases the ranks of skating fans. If only we had a Mao or a YuNa over here in the U.S.!

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    It hasn't been a distinction of money since 1994 when professional skaters like Boitano and G&G and Witt all came back to skate in Lillehammer. "Professional" is the term used for the retired from competition/tour skaters. Their "profession" is not sport but entertainment. The "competitive/amateur" skaters make money on sponsors and winnings and only "tour" in the off season. It's been this way for over two decades now (Kurt Browning fought his federation way back when in the 80s to be allowed to receive sponsorship money and keep it in a trust fund. Other skaters followed suit. He probably wasn't the first amateur to find that loophole, but he's the only one I know about to reference lol).
    Debi Thomas did that too.

  7. #22
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    Good for Plushenko! He is a very exciting skater. Hope he is doing the right thing for his own body though.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think it will be a problem. As I recall, the original infraction was more a squabble between Plushenko and the Russian federation than with the ISU. IIRC Plushenko's offense was that he skated in some shows without the permission of the Russian federation.
    Actually I think that it was ISU which forced RF to withdraw their permisson for Plushenko to skate in those shows, otherwise RF would have had problems with ISU (Russian skaters not allowed to compete in any ISU events).

  9. #24
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    According to Wikipedia, an amateur is someone who pursues a goal without pay. From the above comments, it seems to be just a misnomer and the word 'sanctioned' modifies the word 'competitive'. No problem for me, and would like the word 'amateur' stricken from use.

    I believe the argument came up because of the Soviets who permitted their Olympic Teams to be trained by the State giving the athletes all living expenses and not be expected to do outside work on their own. The non Soviet athletes all loved the idea, and hence the true meaning of the word 'amateur' disappeared. This was a boon to Figure Skating for the athletes, coaches and choreographers.

  10. #25
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    According to Wikipedia, an amateur is someone who pursues a goal without pay. From the above comments, it seems to be just a misnomer and the word 'sanctioned' modifies the word 'competitive'. No problem for me, and would like the word 'amateur' stricken from use.

    I believe the argument came up because of the Soviets who permitted their Olympic Teams to be trained by the State giving the athletes all living expenses and not be expected to do outside work on their own. The non Soviet athletes all loved the idea, and hence the true meaning of the word 'amateur' disappeared. This was a boon to Figure Skating for the athletes, coaches and choreographers.
    I highly doubt the ISU/AP are going to change its wording just because wikipedia and the dictionary don't liken the term to what they consider it to be.

    (AP meaning Associated Press, considering they refuse to update their cliffnotes book on the skating subject, I doubt they'll change their use of amateur anytime soon)
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 04-16-2011 at 11:02 AM.

  11. #26
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that the ISU does not use the word “amateur” in any of its rules or communications. “Amateur” in the title of this thread is the word used by the AP reporter, not by the ISU.

    If you want to see the exact wording about “eligibility” in the ISU Constitution, click here, then on “Constitution and General Regulations 2010 (pdf),” then scroll down to page 83. On page 84 is the exact rule that Plushenko was in violation of.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

    In case there is any doubt about why the ISU maintains these eligibility conditions, it’s right here in Rule 102 1 (a) (ii):

    the condition of eligibility is made for the adequate protection of the economic and other interests of the ISU, which uses its financial revenues for the administration and development of the ISU sport disciplines and for the support and benefit of the Members and their Skaters.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-16-2011 at 11:01 AM.

  12. #27
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^

    Thanks MM. Now how will the ISU treat the prodigal son? I dunno.

  13. #28
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    Sure if he wants to come in 11th at the Olympics as an even bigger has been then he was in Vancouver (yeah I know he won silver, but in his prime he would destroy someone like Lysacek) and destroy his already butchered knees to the point he will soon need a wheelchair good for him.

  14. #29
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    I would really think that well informed posters elsewise, like wallylutz would be also informed for ISU rules concerning eligibility, before rushing to these kind of comments which I find unfiar for Russia F and the skater himself. Evgeni lost his eligibility by rule i) (i really wont post paragraphs again) and by that he is allowed to ask for reinstatement whenever he wants. Appeal is another chapter that all athletes, not just skaters have the right to do via CAS, thats a court. Not only Evgeni but any skater not called Evgeni also can ask for reinstatement if they get ineligible by said paragraph. ISU was pretty careful when they announce their decision last season by which rule he is ineligible and all the procedures he is doing now are inside their own communications. Maybe Toni who is worried about ISU reliability can help me find the thread of last year where the rules were posted in details.
    Btw we saw Evgeni in Prague this weekend and he was business as usual, training on and off ice before the shows like he was competing. I personally have mixed feelings about all this, cause I saw all the procedure he does before every skate with his knees (like Lambiel last year with his hip) and it is not pleasant at all. But he sounded determined.His new program with Zhulin is really nice. Anyway I was kinda of sad cause audience sees only the other side of the curtain, the glamorous one. Sasha and Surya also skated really injured with doctors waiting for them after show, if you didnt know it you wouldnt think they were injured in their performances.

  15. #30
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^^
    The Russia today is not the same as the Soviet Russia. Plushenko is still the best male skater there, and he should be representing his country and in his case Himself! I would have Michael Weiss join him if Michael wanted to. I happen to like aging skaters still active in the sport. Too bad Dick's dream of a Senior (age) Division of Competition was negated for the silly Sunday Afternoon shenanigans. I know some people liked them but the public didn't, and after several months, they fell off the radar. Sad, an Annual Event of Aging skaters competing on a Sunday afternoon felled by dress up.

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