Are judges able to "rank" skaters while they are judging?
This is an offshoot to the conversation about Evan vs. Evgeni. I thought I'd start a new thread to ask my question, to separate it from the quad question.
Under 6.0, they did, correct? They would rank the skaters, saying "OK, I thought Tara was better than Michelle, so I'll give her a 5.9 because I gave Michelle a 5.8" for example. A judge would put the skaters in order as they liked them, and panel of crooked judges could manipulate the whole competition if they wanted to, by placing certain skaters above others en masse.
Under the COP, is this type of manipulation possible? Do they know that in order to make sure Skater A wins, they must not give Skater B more than 7.2 for transitions, for example? Or is it so confusing that they just add or take away decimal points as they see fit, with really no idea what it will all add up to in the end?
People complain about the judging all the time, but maybe there are so many numbers and so many categories, the judges themselves may have no idea what the final score will be for a skater (unless they can add in their heads), and may not know exactly who will be in first or second place. That doesn't let the COP off the hook, if the base values are off, however.
Rooting for the divas with Kwanford
I've been wondering the same thing for ages! Thanks for posting it.
Bona Fide Member
Great thread question!
My impression is that, no, the judges cannot compute fast enough in their heads to know that they need to give their favorite a 7.2 in transitions to make that skater come out ahead.
But a judge could certainly score the favored skater generously across the board, while low balling that skater's rival. Since all the points of all the judges are added up, this might be even more effective than just to give a high ordinal on the judge's own card. The rule about dropping the highest and lowest mark reduces the impact of this strategy, however.
There is also the potential for the technical panel to call errors more stringently for one skater than for another.
Let's not forget that Cinquanta said anonymous judging is necessary to reduce cheating.
This means he believes federations and their judges have the same attitude about scoring under CoP as they had in the 6.0 era.
Personally I think the truest purpose of the CoP anonymous judging is to make it harder to get caught again, particularly at the Olympics which was such a major embarrassment for IOC in 2002.
As to competitions other than the Olympics ISU seemed comfortable enough with 6.0 or CoP judging.
"Judges are human" and changing a scoring system does not change human nature.
Last edited by janetfan; 04-16-2011 at 10:37 AM.
Bona Fide Member
On second reading of Poodlepal's post, I think I did not speak to the right question. It's not about cheating, but about whether judges are still using the scoring system to rank skaters as to who they thought was best, second best, etc. Right?
OK, in that case I think that at first the judges used the PCSs exactly like that. The skater that they thought was best, they gave that skater straight 8.5's. The skater they thought was second best got 8.25's, third best was 8.0's, and so on.
I think that over the years, as the judges got used to the new system, they began to make a more serious effort to score according to the guidelines. So that it would be possible (but still not common) for a skater to get high marks in interpretation but low marks in skating skills if the judge thought such marks were justified.
Still, I do not think that the ordinal approach can be completely eclipsed. At the end of the day, somebody wins, somebody is second and somebody third. The judges will give the higher marks to the skater that the judge thinks skated the best, as always.
Do you think Joe Inman might have felt differently about this last season?
Originally Posted by Mathman
We know how Plushy felt about it when he remarked about TR and then again when said Evan's OGM was not about who skated best but which country/federation "needed it more."
When a well respected judge and skater of Plushy's stature make such remarks do you think they are satisfied with the scoring system?
Were they questioning the integrity or the basic nuts and bolts of the system