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Thread: Are judges able to "rank" skaters while they are judging?

  1. #31
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I really wont interfere in the conversation but many fans (and posters here) and some other skaters like Joubert and Lambiel -who have a small nose btw- have talked about holes in the new system and have expressed some judging about it. We are all used to judge anything in fs and CoP except for leaving the skaters do the same as we do all day.
    But there are fans who see the CoP as divinely written. It's best to ignore that group.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Mathman. Of course, figure skating wasn't for me under 6.0. I'm glad it is now.
    Not everyone thinks that way, but you are entitled to your beliefs.

    My beliefs of the CoP

    1. It kind of ended Collusion in figure skating
    2. It answers many questions by searching the Protocols.

    My disbeliefs in the CoP

    1. The system is still 80% opinion and not quantifiable.
    2. The system has discontinued base values for certain elements without reason.
    3. The system has ignored the need for a separate Elements segment.
    4. The Short Program is a test of nothing, but it is scored in the manner of the LP.
    5. The Free Skate was replaced by a very restricted Long Program.

    I don't know the group who arrived at individual base values. Difficult to believe they were skaters.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 04-17-2011 at 11:15 AM.

  3. #33
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Of course, figure skating wasn't for me under 6.0. I'm glad it is now.
    Actually, in spite of everything, I am not really against the CoP. It is an attenpt to paint a veneer of objectivity over a subjective endeavor.

    An ill-fitting coat, in my opinion. But when the wind blows, better than no coat at all.

  4. #34
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    what is zest and elan?
    The opposite of bleh. (OT, I just figured out how to do accents: élan Jessica Dubé )

    Michelle lost due to Azerbaijan judge then?
    I was just kidding. Actually, the judges who voted against Michelle were the usual suspects: Russia, Ukraine, and France, along with Australia, Austria and Hungary. (Hey, that's cheating. Weren't Austria and Hungary one country way back then?)

    Poland voted for Michelle. I think they were mad at the Lipinski and Brozyniak (Tara's mom) families for leaving Poland.

  5. #35
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    The only one I remember voting for Michelle was Germany's judge, Jan Hoffmann, who skated for East Germany in 1980's Olympics (and was the 1980 World Champion, I think). He supported Oksana Baiul in 1994, so plainly artistry appealed to him.

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    1. It kind of ended Collusion in figure skating.
    I don't see how the CoP does anything to discourage collusion. If a bunch of judges want to get together and say, let's all give high scores to this guy and low scores to that guy -- how does that CoP prevent them from carrying out their plan? Get the technical specialist in on the game, and your hand is even stronger.

  7. #37
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see how the CoP does anything to discourage collusion. If a bunch of judges want to get together and say, let's all give high scores to this guy and low scores to that guy -- how does that CoP prevent them from carrying out their plan? Get the technical specialist in on the game, and your hand is even stronger.
    It is easier to manipulate scoring under CoP than it was under 6.0.
    It is also harder to get caught which is why the CoP and the anonymous judging was brought in along with the tech panel.

    ISU has made it clear that politics and cheating will be tolerated. What they don't want at any cost is to get caught again at the Olympics.

    Even a small child can see there is a lack of accountabilty in skating today.

    If that is taking skating forward as a legitimate sport then I am the Shah of Iran. :sheesh:

  8. #38
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see how the CoP does anything to discourage collusion. If a bunch of judges want to get together and say, let's all give high scores to this guy and low scores to that guy -- how does that CoP prevent them from carrying out their plan? Get the technical specialist in on the game, and your hand is even stronger.
    I wrote "kind of", and left it open for some anti N.Americans to gang up when they learn how to do it. However, I have not noticed that since 6.0 was disgraced in 2002 Olympics. However if you believe CoP does not discourage collusion, can you give examples?

    Also can you tell me how to make the French Accents on an English keyboard.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    It is easier to manipulate scoring under CoP than it was under 6.0.
    It is also harder to get caught which is why the CoP and the anonymous judging was brought in along with the tech panel.

    ISU has made it clear that politics and cheating will be tolerated. What they don't want at any cost is to get caught again at the Olympics.

    Even a small child can see there is a lack of accountabilty in skating today.

    If that is taking skating forward as a legitimate sport then I am the Shah of Iran. :sheesh:
    I'd argue it's harder to manipulate scoring, particularly with the technical panel.

  10. #40
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'd argue it's harder to manipulate scoring, particularly with the technical panel.
    Morozov has spoken out quite clearly against your POV.

    He said it used to take 4-5 and now it only takes one.

    Orser said as much when he was coaching Yuna.

    Carroll got into a loud shouting match last year at Natls blasting the US tech panel for favoritism.

    Mishin claimed there was a N. American conspiracy against Plushenko last season.

    Why should I beleive you as opposed to leading players in the skating world?
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-17-2011 at 07:03 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Morozov has spoken out quite clearly against your POV.

    He said it used to take 4-5 and now it only takes one.

    Orser said as much when he was coaching Yuna.

    Carroll got into a loud shouting match last year at Natls blasting the US tech panel for favoritism.

    Mishin claimed there was a N. American conspiracy against Plushenko last season.

    Why should I beleive you as opposed to leading players in the skating world?
    Argumentum ad verecundiam?

    Not that I necessarily disagree with the point you have in principle, but one might think that Mishin and co. have certain...interests that may compel them to make such statements.

  12. #42
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I wrote "kind of", and left it open for some anti N.Americans to gang up when they learn how to do it. However, I have not noticed that since 6.0 was disgraced in 2002 Olympics. However if you believe CoP does not discourage collusion, can you give examples?
    That's the problem. With anonymous judging you can't tell if anything funny is going on or not.

    Also can you tell me how to make the French Accents on an English keyboard.
    I sent you a PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrando
    Why should I beleive you as opposed to leading players in the skating world?
    Well, Pogue is a dispassionate observer with no personal ax to grind. So he might have a more objective view.

    I doubt if Frank Carroll would have raised a ruckus if he had perceived that the tech panel was favoring his skaters instead of beating them up. Mishin would not have complained if he saw a conspiracy favoring Plushenko. It's all whose ox is getting gored.

    In fact, I think it is part of the coach's job to go around wuz-robbing his skaters, to counter the influence of the other coaches who are wuz-robbing theirs.

    Edited to add:
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Argumentum ad verecundiam?
    I learned a new word. I love this board!
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-17-2011 at 07:49 PM.

  13. #43
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, Pogue is a dispassionate observer with no personal ax to grind. So he might have a more objective view.

    I doubt if Frank Carroll would have raised a ruckus if he had perceived that the tech panel was favoring his skaters instead of beating them up. Mishin would not have complained if he saw a conspiracy favoring Plushenko. It's all whose ox is getting gored.

    :
    You lost me with your first thought.

    Pogue, with all due respect is not just a believer but a preacher of the vitures of the CoP.

    Your second thought feels very true, even painfully true.

    Evangeline seems to understand that I am not against skating but against a certain politcal perversion of the sport.

    I think there is a credibilty factor missing and I don't see any improvement from 6.0 to CoP.

    If GS posters have any credibilty at all the why are there so many disputes over judging? Has it gotten better under CoP?

    Why are so many fans disgruntled about the Men's and Dance podium from the Vancouver Olympics?

    How is it better under CoP than 6.0? Pogue said the "tech panel" made it better but that feels false and more like a weak defense of the CoP.

    Why are some of the leading coaches in the sport complaining about the tech panel and the feeling that politics are still behind placements at times?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Morozov has spoken out quite clearly against your POV.

    He said it used to take 4-5 and now it only takes one.

    Orser said as much when he was coaching Yuna.

    Carroll got into a loud shouting match last year at Natls blasting the US tech panel for favoritism.

    Mishin claimed there was a N. American conspiracy against Plushenko last season.

    Why should I beleive you as opposed to leading players in the skating world?
    shrug - that's up to you. Of course, it doesn't take 4-5. It only takes one. To wit, 2002 SLC pairs.

    Also, by definition, with the top mark being thrown out, it can't take one in COP. Only one is an outlier and as such doesn't contribute to the final score. For example, a judge giving Virtue/Moir PCS in the fives for their sterling SD at 4CC 2011. If only one judge can change the podium, then that arguably means the competition was so close that either result is fair.

    And finally, are you asserting that Morosov/Orser/Carroll/Mishin are arguing from the perspective that they only want what's good for the sport, as opposed to what's good for the skaters? Additionally, could you find links supporting your assertion (with the exception of Mishin, as I recall those statements post-Inman controversy and don't need verification).

    Why are there so many disputes over judging? Because people disagree. I don't see that as a flaw with COP as it is an inherent flaw in any judging system.

    People disagree with judgements made in courts of law that send people to prison for twenty years. People disagree with judgements made by our politicians when they send people when they decide how to spend money/tax people/etc. People disagree with awards organizations when they decide The King's Speech is in fact the best film of the year.

    Hernando, if you want me to write a fuller defense of COP, I can. I don't expect you to agree, of course.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I do believe there was a Soviet pact in scoring skaters although I can not prove it except to say they never varied from each other. That was all some 9 years ago. I don't think Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine really get into that anymore, and Russia if it is going to gather up a gang would find it difficult to get many adherence. Any futzing around with the CoP is completely individual, but there could be a meeting of similar minds to manipulate the scores. I do not know the habits of judges when they are not judging.

    When the official list of contestants appears, let's check the judges' names and if possible what country they represent.

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