The American Ladies Leading Up To Sochi.

Hernando said:

Christina looks as tall and is probably taller than Agnes.

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Christina looks tall because of her long limbs but she's definitely not as tall as Agnes who's listed as 5'6".

Anyway, I think Christina has made progress in many areas this season, and I look forward to seeing both skaters improve in the upcoming one.

Sylvia said:

Christina looks tall because of her long limbs but she's definitely not as tall as Agnes who's listed as 5'6".

Anyway, I think Christina has made progress in many areas this season, and I look forward to seeing both skaters improve in the upcoming one.

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Agnes has been 5'6 since she was 14. I don't believe that Christina is not already taller than Yuna and Mao, but so what?

I like both girls and can't predict who will do better in the future. But as P/T pointed out so far Agnes has an edge over Christina and she is a year younger.

Hernando said:

Maybe he chose to overlook it because it seems full of questionable statements.

Christina looks as tall and is probably taller than Agnes. I don't think Agnes has grown at all in the past season but Christina has been growing like a weed.

She forgot to mention that Agnes is a better spinner than Christina, has better stretch and appears to be a more natural performer.

I hardly know anyone that is too crazy about Wilson's "Yuna copycat choreo" for Christina. It really is not very original looking IMO.

Sometimes results have to be considered. Agnes, not even skating her best keeps beating Christina. Let's not overlook that part, OK :think:

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Christina is no way as tall as Agnes. Agnes might be more like 5'7" now and Christina is probably about 5'4". In the skating world that makes a big difference. Christina is also much smaller boned, built more like Yuna or Mao, whereas Agnes has quite the big bone structure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idhlbVNqnCk Look around the 27 second mark and you see Agnes and Christina right next to each other, and Agnes is way taller. Christina has shot up this season, but last season she was really tiny.

Anyways I mentioned this before that I think Agnes is on a faster track than Christina, which is why she is beating her now. Christina I think is more of a late bloomer, she started skating when she was 7 or 8, which is pretty late, and didn't have much success until nationals in 2009, and has improved rapidly since then. She's playing catch up a little bit with some of the other skaters like Agnes, who is only a few months younger so really the age difference is negligible, and the younger girls she's been competing against these past two seasons, but she is holding her own and keeps improving, so who knows what could happen in another 3 years if she keeps improving at such a quick pace.

Also, I mentioned that Agnes will probably be one of the top US ladies going into Sochi, I think that both she and Christina, and probably Mirai too, will all be . Right now she's beating Christina, but I don't expect that trend to continue. Of course, I could be wrong, but there was a time when Caroline Zhang was beating Mirai Nagasu, and that certainly isn't the case anymore. A lot of people draw comparisons between Christina and Yuna Kim, Michelle Kwan, and Shizuka Arakawa so I think that's significant. People compare Agnes to Tonya Harding and Cynthia Phanuef. I'm not saying Agnes doesn't have a shot at making it to the top, I just think that Christina would probably have an easier time of it.

miki88 said:

As much as I like Risa Shoji (I prefer her style over Kanako's), she has UR issues that she will need to sort out in the future.

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Yeah I'm hoping she can address them like Mirai did. The one upside is that, also like Mirai, she usually lands her jumps, even when they are cheated. She definitely has things to work on I was just pointing out that for her age she's really good, especially in the way of program components.

Ask again in 2013 -- too soon too say.

Does any one know what's going on with Kiri Baga ? I haven't heard anything about her in a while.

Kiri Baga is back on the ice and frequently tweets updates : http://twitter.com/kiribaga

silverlake22 said:

A lot of people draw comparisons between Christina and Yuna Kim, Michelle Kwan, and Shizuka Arakawa so I think that's significant.

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Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan were no late bloomers if that is what you are thinking. Kwan won her first World title at an age she would be ineligible to compete at Senior Worlds today. She also never improved as a skater from where she was at ages 15-17 (Phil Hersh said it best, she hit her technical peak in 96 and her artistic peak in 98) but because she is so outstanding, and had such a good combination of consistency, reputation, and determination to back her she remained very successful. Yu Na Kim would have been a big threat for the 2006 Olympic Gold if she wasnt underaged to compete, so no late bloomer either.

As for being like Shizuka, that would basically be lucky that you somehow were able to get noticed by your federation again when it looked like you had already been dumped for good, get lucky to hit your peak in a very weak interim era with a mix of past their prime greats with serious health problems (Kwan, Slutskaya) and half would be greats (Cohen, Suguri) and to have the 2 performances of your life in the midst of splatfests, and voila be transformed from career journeywomen to World and Olympic Champion. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but really Shizuka's career is the strangest path to greatness ever.

People compare Agnes to Tonya Harding and Cynthia Phanuef.

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Since Harding is absolutely nothing like Phaneuf I dont even know what to make of this one.

Jtsmith123 said:

Does any one know what's going on with Kiri Baga ? I haven't heard anything about her in a while.

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I think her injury is healing, but to be honest, I don't think she has much of a chance in singles. She'd be better off switching to pairs, IMO.

silverlake22 said:

Also, I mentioned that Agnes will probably be one of the top US ladies going into Sochi, I think that both she and Christina, and probably Mirai too, will all be . Right now she's beating Christina, but I don't expect that trend to continue. Of course, I could be wrong, but there was a time when Caroline Zhang was beating Mirai Nagasu, and that certainly isn't the case anymore.

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I like both Agnes and Christina. I can't see Agnes as Caroline Zhang and Christina as Mirai...

The big difference for me between them so far, other than their respective strengths and weaknesses, is that Agnes has been better in bigger competitions--Nationals and Junior Worlds--than Christina has so far. That goes a long way in my book. Whether it's mental strength of peaking at the right time...you've got to get it done. If you want to be a champion, you gotta show up in the big competitions, and you have to do enough to grab some hardware. Agnes is a two-time medalist at junior worlds, a US Junior national champ, and a medalist at US senior nationals. Christina ended up empty handed in her big competitions this season, contrary to pre-season expectation, where she herself set the lofty goal of making the US worlds team...senior. Something which still baffles me.

Agnes very likely could have fallen into the trap of a letdown at Junior Worlds this season, after having competed as a senior all season. But nope. Under the pressure of skating last in the final group, she put out her best LP all season long. I was thrilled for her and impressed. I think she deserves a bit more credit for her mental strength as a competitor, which she'll be able to rely on in the future.

But after all, I do agree that Christina has the potential to improve in the future. She is a lovely girl. I hope both Agnes and Christina continue to improve and develop in their skating and I look forward to seeing them compete in the future.

American ladies still have catching up to do to match the Japanese skaters, and now the up-and-coming Russians.

Perhaps things will change with the new crop of skaters- Gao, Zawadzki, revamped Nagasu, etc. - but this much I know: the status quo just isn't getting it done. With all due respect to Flatt, Wagner, Czisny, Zhang, Nagasu- they just aren't good enough at this point. And with no one really stepping up, we're stuck in this sort of rut.

I'll give a little credit to Czisny, at least- since she managed to surprise people by eeking out a GPF win, and winning Nats for the 2nd time (or 1st, depending on how you viewed 2009 ). Her score at the GPF, assuming SOME scoring consistency, would put her in medal contention at the Worlds. But we've seen time and time again that she has struggled with inconsistency throughout her career. She's gotten somewhat better about it this season, but with the extraordinary circumstances in place here, who knows what to expect at the Worlds.

A third spot for 2012, IMO, would be VERY useful for the Americans- this would allow another skater to gain some experience- and perhaps up our odds of maintaining 3 spots given how deep the American ladies field has become.

Past 2012- too soon to tell. I think we're in another transitional period here. Think 2008 when Meissner and Hughes were replaced in dramatic fashion by the current crop of ladies. I think something similar will happen next season. We've already seen skaters like Zhang- and now Wagner- fall slowly out of the running. We still have Flatt and Nagasu- Flatt looking to go to college next year (and even if she does continue skating, school will demand more of her attention and I don't think she will stay at a competitive level), and Nagasu struggling with nerves. I think out of our current crop of skaters, only Nagasu has the real talent to lead us through- but does she have the drive? the interest? the discipline/work ethic?

jaylee said:

I like both Agnes and Christina. I can't see Agnes as Caroline Zhang and Christina as Mirai...

The big difference for me between them so far, other than their respective strengths and weaknesses, is that Agnes has been better in bigger competitions--Nationals and Junior Worlds--than Christina has so far. That goes a long way in my book. Whether it's mental strength of peaking at the right time...you've got to get it done. If you want to be a champion, you gotta show up in the big competitions, and you have to do enough to grab some hardware. Agnes is a two-time medalist at junior worlds, a US Junior national champ, and a medalist at US senior nationals. Christina ended up empty handed in her big competitions this season, contrary to pre-season expectation, where she herself set the lofty goal of making the US worlds team...senior. Something which still baffles me.

Agnes very likely could have fallen into the trap of a letdown at Junior Worlds this season, after having competed as a senior all season. But nope. Under the pressure of skating last in the final group, she put out her best LP all season long. I was thrilled for her and impressed. I think she deserves a bit more credit for her mental strength as a competitor, which she'll be able to rely on in the future.

But after all, I do agree that Christina has the potential to improve in the future. She is a lovely girl. I hope both Agnes and Christina continue to improve and develop in their skating and I look forward to seeing them compete in the future.

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Well you have a point, and it's a good one. Agnes does get the job done when it counts. I feel the same way about Rachael vs. Mirai, Rachael qualified for the GPF and made the Worlds team this season, and Mirai, arguably the better skater, was left off the roster for both events. Out of fairness to Christina though, she did medal at the JGPF last season, and finishing 5th at nationals was actually a big accomplishment considering no one really expected her to finish even that high last season. This season, yeah, she was a bit of a letdown at the JGPF and then at nationals when she had a good chance to medal where she drew to skate after Agnes in the FS but then didn't, and again at Junior Worlds when she was in medal contention after the SP but then got bumped off, again by Agnes. Some of that this season may have been due to her growthspurt, and in the case of junior worlds, she had a terrible warm up where she fell 3 times and then had to skate first - not saying that is an excuse, i'm sure it happens to everyone and the champions learn how to put it behind them, but it is worth noting in her defense. But we saw with Adam Rippon the same issue with peaking really early in the season, so I think that speaks more to a training regimen than anything else and hopefully Christina and Brian will sort that out in the offseason to try and prevent it from happening next season.

Nagasu may be the better SKATER of the two, but Flatt is the better COMPETITOR. At least in most cases...

Yes the Russian "girls" are very good. But they aren't done growing. It's unlikely they will have the same thin frames they currently have. Mirai and Christina are likely full grown and have adjusted technically to their new bodies. Wasn't it Mishin who said when asked why there weren't more good Russian women's skaters compared to Japan. He said "Russian women are built to lay rail road tracks" and don't have the narrow hips of the Asian women so they lose their jumps.

tobynwinnie said:

Yes the Russian "girls" are very good. But they aren't done growing. It's unlikely they will have the same thin frames they currently have. Mirai and Christina are likely full grown and have adjusted technically to their new bodies. Wasn't it Mishin who said when asked why there weren't more good Russian women's skaters compared to Japan. He said "Russian women are built to lay rail road tracks" and don't have the narrow hips of the Asian women so they lose their jumps.

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Yes, Mishin must have been thinking about giant, hulking, railroad-building Russian women like Ekaterina Gordeeva when he said that. Or Elena Berezhnaya. Possibly Vera Bazarova as well. Their hips definitely don't lie.

The thing is, there are so many good Russian girls that the odds are at least one of them will be able to retain their jumps post-puberty. For example--I believe Mishin himself has made inquiries about the physical size of Liza T's parents before taking her on as a pupil.

evangeline said:

Yes, Mishin must have been thinking about giant, hulking, railroad-building Russian women like Ekaterina Gordeeva when he said that. Or Elena Berezhnaya. Possibly Vera Bazarova as well. Their hips definitely don't lie.

The thing is, there are so many good Russian girls that the odds are at least one of them will be able to retain their jumps post-puberty. For example--I believe Mishin himself has made inquiries about the physical size of Liza T's parents before taking her on as a pupil.

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Apparently Liza's mom never worked laying railroad tracks in Siberia.

Lucky for Liza, although maybe it is her mom who is the lucky one.

evangeline said:

Yes, Mishin must have been thinking about giant, hulking, railroad-building Russian women like Ekaterina Gordeeva when he said that. Or Elena Berezhnaya. Possibly Vera Bazarova as well. Their hips definitely don't lie.

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Not to mention all those gymnasts, including Khorkina, who competed well into her twenties and was quite tall for a gymnast to boot. Some men ought not to be allowed to talk about the other gender. They have no expertise at all and in fact plainly lack an understanding of fully fifty percent of their own species.

But even if Mishin is correct about the so-called "Asian body type" (I'm sure he can't be thinking of the sturdy but unparalleled Midori Ito), this gives the U.S. and Canada an advantage, because we are a multi-racial society. And yet Zhang and Nagasu are floundering currently, each for different reasons. I agree that we don't have anyone who's up to the current level of the Japanese skaters (and the one phenomenal Korean!), but there's something else involved, clearly. Is it training? Dedication? Just the sheer luck of not having a skating genius coming along at the right moment? Whatever it is, we have work to do, and at the moment the only thing in America that seems to be spinning is our wheels--as in no traction on the slick roadway, whirring faster and faster but making no mileage.

R.D. said:

Nagasu may be the better SKATER of the two, but Flatt is the better COMPETITOR. At least in most cases...

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Maybe you are right but let's consider their last big Intl competitions.

Mirai beat Rachael at the Olympics. Mirai beat Rachael at 2010 Worlds. Mirai beat Rachael at 4CC. These are all prestigious Intl ISU events.

It is true that coming off an injury Mirai did not qualify for the GPF this season. No need to bring up how Rachael performed at the GPF.

Not so sure I see a pattern or basic results that show Rachael is a better competitor than Mirai, atleast at the biggest Intl ISU events.

The other fact worth noting could be that Mirai equals or beats the scores she gets at Natls at Intl events.

Maybe I should look it up, but I dont think Rachael typically matches her Natls scores at Intl events.

Just saying :think:

When you look at people like Dai, Mao, and Miki, you see the most amazing determination to overcome hardships, the most exceptional work ethic. I'm not sure I see that when I look at Mirai. (Has Frank ever praised her work ethic?) She still comes across as a child in many ways, compared with the Japanese skaters - and I'm not talking about age but maturity. Yet she has every bit as much talent as they have, as far as I can tell, and one of the best coaches in the business.

Spun Silver said:

When you look at people like Dai, Mao, and Miki, you see the most amazing determination to overcome hardships, the most exceptional work ethic. I'm not sure I see that when I look at Mirai. (Has Frank ever praised her work ethic?) She still comes across as a child in many ways, compared with the Japanese skaters - and I'm not talking about age but maturity. Yet she has every bit as much talent as they have, as far as I can tell, and one of the best coaches in the business.

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Mirai and Frank have been quiet since Ntls/4cc. I wonder if the next big coaching change we hear about will involve Mirai and Frank.

Just a thought, have heard nothing so I am just specualting. I hope Frank does not dump Mirai just as I hope Mirai does not quit Frank.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to make a change.