The American Ladies Leading Up To Sochi. | Page 5 | Golden Skate

The American Ladies Leading Up To Sochi.

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sadly, I find myself unable to impose on hoi polloi...

:) Today I withdrew some money from the ATM machine.

Pan-specific. Pan-specific. I love it. (I don't know what it means, but I love it). :rock:

You are a professional scholarly writer, right? :yes:
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Yes, the Final is restricted. But how many ladies try to GET to the Final?
I'm actually in substantial agreement with you, which I thought was fairly clear in that paragraph :). But I was just observing that we're like a couple of lonely wolves baying at the moon.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Yes, the Final is restricted. But how many ladies try to GET to the Final?
The ones with the 3A and some with 3x3, and others with lyrical ballet arms. That's the story of Ladies in general. Without one of those mentioned, all is lost. Not even a contract with a travelling ice show without auditioning.

I'm a big fan of the GPs, and I would like to see at least two more in the GPF but I would prefer to see two sets of groups for the Finals so maybe 4 more. At the beginning of the season the skaters will be ready or not. Those ready will have shown 6 good programs like the sportspeople they are. Those not ready, will have a lot of extra makeup training to do.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Two more would be enough for two groups.

I'd prefer a massive restructuring of the GP season, actually, but that's something different.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Two more would be enough for two groups.

I'd prefer a massive restructuring of the GP season, actually, but that's something different.
Well, there are a number of structures that do need attention. No fan is interested in talking shop, until after the Worlds but keep it in mind. It's a sporty competition without the Glitz of Nats and Worlds.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
10 entries for the Singles events and then 8 for Pairs and Dance would be ideal, if it were to be expanded at all. More than that makes it less prestigious. The total score from the earlier Grand Prix events should determine entries as well; placements are a bad primary qualifier considering how unbalanced the precursor events can be in terms of depth of field.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I like placements because that method elevates each individual Grand Prix event to the status of something worth winning in its own right, never mind the finals.

The original idea of the "Champions Series" was that the winners of the six events would meet at the end for a grand shootout of champions. Of course, if a competitor won more than one event, then you had fill out the field with second-place finishers.

As for easy or hard fields, the total point method has problems, too. Besides the differences between stingy and generous officiating panels, in addition the scores seem to rise as the season progresses -- both because the performers skate better and also because of gradual grade inflation over the course of the season.
 

attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
While I'm personally somewhat sympathetic with this point of view, the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. By this I mean that, if the GPF really did satisfy the mainstream notion of a "true" champion (particularly in the U.S., where both society at large as well as the skating community continue to live by the Lombardi credo that winning is "the only thing"), then Alissa would now currently be "IT", she will have already satisfied the public as well as herself, and would be feted, I think, in a much more grandiose way than she currently is. ...

She was in a commercial shown on the Super Bowl ... and the US think highly of the commercials at that particular event. So, even thought that might not "be `IT'", it is much closer to a respectable imitation than simply having a little bit on an ordinary car advertisement.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
^ I like placements because that method elevates each individual Grand Prix event to the status of something worth winning in its own right, never mind the finals.

Participants get money for winning. The events are certainly worth winning in their own right.

As for easy or hard fields, the total point method has problems, too. Besides the differences between stingy and generous officiating panels, in addition the scores seem to rise as the season progresses -- both because the performers skate better and also because of gradual grade inflation over the course of the season.

The total point method is already used to break ties, though. It may not be 100% accurate but I think it's better than simply going by placements. When there are huge point gaps it's quite apparent that one skater was clearly better than another during the Grand Prix series. Such as when Joannie Rochette clearly outskated Julia Sebestyen during the 2006 Grand Prix and yet didn't make the GPF because Sebestyen had the two easiest assignments of the series and thus was able to place higher. Joannie Rochette was screwed over yet again the next season when Kimmie Meissner made the GPF with a much weaker showing.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I also believe that MiRai suffers from the overall weakness of the US ladies since Michelle & Sasha's heyday when both were always podium threats and one could be counted on to win.

Sasha never won a major event in her whole life, how could she be "counted on" to win anything, when she could never win anything period. If the Sasha-Michelle combined era in U.S skating was from 2002-2006 the two combined to win 1 of the 7 World and Olympic events during that period, half of what Sarah Hughes and Kimmie Meissner combined for, and less than Slutskaya and Arakawa each on their own. So the people counting on this were certainly not too wise.
 
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PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Sasha never won a major event in her whole life,
This has been addressed.

how could she be "counted on" to win anything, when she could never win anything period. If the Sasha-Michelle combined era in U.S skating was from 2002-2006 the two combined to win 1 of the 7 World and Olympic events during that period, .... So the people counting on this were certainly not too wise.

Let's look at the numbers a little differently. Consider the significant ISU events to be the Olympics, Worlds, 4CC and all Grand Prix events. During the Kwan / Cohen era, Michelle won 3 and Sasha won 6; this makes a total of 9 events. Since that era, starting with the '06 Worlds, all U.S. ladies combined have won 5. And all 5 events were won by only 2 ladies; Kimmie and Alissa.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
This has been addressed.



Let's look at the numbers a little differently. Consider the significant ISU events to be the Olympics, Worlds, 4CC and all Grand Prix events. During the Kwan / Cohen era, Michelle won 3 and Sasha won 6; this makes a total of 9 events. Since that era, starting with the '06 Worlds, all U.S. ladies combined have won 5. And all 5 events were won by only 2 ladies; Kimmie and Alissa.

Part of Kwanford's point might have been that in the Michelle/Sasha era USA had podium contenders at the Olympics and Worlds and they WON lots of medals. The three spots at Worlds and Olympics came much easier when Michelle and/or Sasha were on the podium at the biggest events.

Not so much since they retired. Right now many of the Sasha bashers would be happy if Alissa or Rachael did what Sasha did winning silver at wolrds. Or bronze. Or even a 4th place finish.

I haven't heard any USA fans moaning about not winning the WC. It feels more like having a skater good enough to be in contention for a medal. If either Alissa or Rachael wins a medal at Worlds the chances of getting thethree spots back is much better.

For now Sasha's Intl record remains untouchable by the current USA Ladies.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
That's true indeed.

I was thinking yesterday that if Sasha could return with her skating at the 2006 level, she'd likely beat every one of the current American contenders. I don't know how she'd do internationally. But I do miss her.
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
That's true indeed.

I was thinking yesterday that if Sasha could return with her skating at the 2006 level, she'd likely beat every one of the current American contenders. I don't know how she'd do internationally. But I do miss her.

Well, that's always the problem with the good ol' days. You don't know they are the good ol' days when they are actually happening.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Restructuring the GP Events and Final

There are many good facets to this mentioned. I would like for the ISU to find a new way of Tie Breakers. It is far too cumbersome even for the knowledgeable fan, and imo, not all together fair, since different comps have different judges.

Let there be a "Playoff" by having the tied contestants repeat their SPs. It works in Golf and is quite exciting and also heartbreaking.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Part of Kwanford's point might have been that in the Michelle/Sasha era USA had podium contenders at the Olympics and Worlds and they WON lots of medals. The three spots at Worlds and Olympics came much easier when Michelle and/or Sasha were on the podium at the biggest events.

Not so much since they retired. Right now many of the Sasha bashers would be happy if Alissa or Rachael did what Sasha did winning silver at wolrds. Or bronze. Or even a 4th place finish.

I haven't heard any USA fans moaning about not winning the WC. It feels more like having a skater good enough to be in contention for a medal. If either Alissa or Rachael wins a medal at Worlds the chances of getting thethree spots back is much better.

Yes. The issue for US fans, even more frustrating than not having a strong GM contender, is not even having a strong medal contender period.

Cohen may not have won a major event, but she definitely did her part in keeping US skating competitive by being in the hunt, and keeping 3 spots for the ladies throughout that era. No way Kwan could have done that just by herself.

I was thinking yesterday that if Sasha could return with her skating at the 2006 level, she'd likely beat every one of the current American contenders. I don't know how she'd do internationally.

Haven't we already re-hashed this? Didn't she already try in 2010? I think people are overrating Cohen's ability in 2006- the field is significantly stronger now than it was 5 years ago. I mean, she did a "clean" SP at Nationals and didn't even win that segment of the competition.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I would like for the ISU to find a new way of Tie Breakers. It is far too cumbersome even for the knowledgeable fan, and imo, not all together fair, since different comps have different judges.


The tie-breaking system is actually easy to remember if you think about principles rather than rules. The principles are:

1. Winning is everything. If you get a first place and a third, you beat the guy with two seconds, because you won something.

2. Placements beat points. The tie-breaker goes to points only as a last resort, if two skaers have exactly the same two placements.
 
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