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Thread: The American Ladies Leading Up To Sochi.

  1. #91
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I like placements because that method elevates each individual Grand Prix event to the status of something worth winning in its own right, never mind the finals.
    Participants get money for winning. The events are certainly worth winning in their own right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As for easy or hard fields, the total point method has problems, too. Besides the differences between stingy and generous officiating panels, in addition the scores seem to rise as the season progresses -- both because the performers skate better and also because of gradual grade inflation over the course of the season.
    The total point method is already used to break ties, though. It may not be 100% accurate but I think it's better than simply going by placements. When there are huge point gaps it's quite apparent that one skater was clearly better than another during the Grand Prix series. Such as when Joannie Rochette clearly outskated Julia Sebestyen during the 2006 Grand Prix and yet didn't make the GPF because Sebestyen had the two easiest assignments of the series and thus was able to place higher. Joannie Rochette was screwed over yet again the next season when Kimmie Meissner made the GPF with a much weaker showing.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    I also believe that MiRai suffers from the overall weakness of the US ladies since Michelle & Sasha's heyday when both were always podium threats and one could be counted on to win.
    Sasha never won a major event in her whole life, how could she be "counted on" to win anything, when she could never win anything period. If the Sasha-Michelle combined era in U.S skating was from 2002-2006 the two combined to win 1 of the 7 World and Olympic events during that period, half of what Sarah Hughes and Kimmie Meissner combined for, and less than Slutskaya and Arakawa each on their own. So the people counting on this were certainly not too wise.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 04-23-2011 at 04:20 AM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Sasha never won a major event in her whole life,
    This has been addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    how could she be "counted on" to win anything, when she could never win anything period. If the Sasha-Michelle combined era in U.S skating was from 2002-2006 the two combined to win 1 of the 7 World and Olympic events during that period, .... So the people counting on this were certainly not too wise.
    Let's look at the numbers a little differently. Consider the significant ISU events to be the Olympics, Worlds, 4CC and all Grand Prix events. During the Kwan / Cohen era, Michelle won 3 and Sasha won 6; this makes a total of 9 events. Since that era, starting with the '06 Worlds, all U.S. ladies combined have won 5. And all 5 events were won by only 2 ladies; Kimmie and Alissa.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    This has been addressed.



    Let's look at the numbers a little differently. Consider the significant ISU events to be the Olympics, Worlds, 4CC and all Grand Prix events. During the Kwan / Cohen era, Michelle won 3 and Sasha won 6; this makes a total of 9 events. Since that era, starting with the '06 Worlds, all U.S. ladies combined have won 5. And all 5 events were won by only 2 ladies; Kimmie and Alissa.
    Part of Kwanford's point might have been that in the Michelle/Sasha era USA had podium contenders at the Olympics and Worlds and they WON lots of medals. The three spots at Worlds and Olympics came much easier when Michelle and/or Sasha were on the podium at the biggest events.

    Not so much since they retired. Right now many of the Sasha bashers would be happy if Alissa or Rachael did what Sasha did winning silver at wolrds. Or bronze. Or even a 4th place finish.

    I haven't heard any USA fans moaning about not winning the WC. It feels more like having a skater good enough to be in contention for a medal. If either Alissa or Rachael wins a medal at Worlds the chances of getting thethree spots back is much better.

    For now Sasha's Intl record remains untouchable by the current USA Ladies.

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    That's true indeed.

    I was thinking yesterday that if Sasha could return with her skating at the 2006 level, she'd likely beat every one of the current American contenders. I don't know how she'd do internationally. But I do miss her.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    That's true indeed.

    I was thinking yesterday that if Sasha could return with her skating at the 2006 level, she'd likely beat every one of the current American contenders. I don't know how she'd do internationally. But I do miss her.
    Well, that's always the problem with the good ol' days. You don't know they are the good ol' days when they are actually happening.

  7. #97
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    Restructuring the GP Events and Final

    There are many good facets to this mentioned. I would like for the ISU to find a new way of Tie Breakers. It is far too cumbersome even for the knowledgeable fan, and imo, not all together fair, since different comps have different judges.

    Let there be a "Playoff" by having the tied contestants repeat their SPs. It works in Golf and is quite exciting and also heartbreaking.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Part of Kwanford's point might have been that in the Michelle/Sasha era USA had podium contenders at the Olympics and Worlds and they WON lots of medals. The three spots at Worlds and Olympics came much easier when Michelle and/or Sasha were on the podium at the biggest events.

    Not so much since they retired. Right now many of the Sasha bashers would be happy if Alissa or Rachael did what Sasha did winning silver at wolrds. Or bronze. Or even a 4th place finish.

    I haven't heard any USA fans moaning about not winning the WC. It feels more like having a skater good enough to be in contention for a medal. If either Alissa or Rachael wins a medal at Worlds the chances of getting thethree spots back is much better.
    Yes. The issue for US fans, even more frustrating than not having a strong GM contender, is not even having a strong medal contender period.

    Cohen may not have won a major event, but she definitely did her part in keeping US skating competitive by being in the hunt, and keeping 3 spots for the ladies throughout that era. No way Kwan could have done that just by herself.

    I was thinking yesterday that if Sasha could return with her skating at the 2006 level, she'd likely beat every one of the current American contenders. I don't know how she'd do internationally.
    Haven't we already re-hashed this? Didn't she already try in 2010? I think people are overrating Cohen's ability in 2006- the field is significantly stronger now than it was 5 years ago. I mean, she did a "clean" SP at Nationals and didn't even win that segment of the competition.
    Last edited by R.D.; 04-23-2011 at 02:34 PM.

  9. #99
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    [B]I would like for the ISU to find a new way of Tie Breakers. It is far too cumbersome even for the knowledgeable fan, and imo, not all together fair, since different comps have different judges.
    The tie-breaking system is actually easy to remember if you think about principles rather than rules. The principles are:

    1. Winning is everything. If you get a first place and a third, you beat the guy with two seconds, because you won something.

    2. Placements beat points. The tie-breaker goes to points only as a last resort, if two skaers have exactly the same two placements.

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