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Thread: Three kinds of upsetting results

  1. #31
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    Question one: Why don't I view the judging at Skate Canada a farce.

    Answer: Because it's been demonstrated time and time and time again that the way the judges marked Chan, they're marking all skaters. So you can argue that COP is a farce in general (which Hernando, I know you believe, and that's a different argument all together), but to specify that Skate Canada's marking was out of line (as a number of people, including people who seem quite knowledgeable) requires more than mere assertion. It requires people to look at the scores demonstrate that SC was in fact incomparable to any other event.

    Point one: People have claimed Patrick Chan has been overmarked in Japan (WTT 2009), Canada (Olympics, Skate Canadas), Russia (CoR 2010), China (GPF 10) and Italy (Worlds 2010). These are the events that I can go look at the threads here, and come up with at least three people who believe this. He's always overmarked. If this is the case, why should SC be any different?

    Point two: And this is the important one. PCS (where people complain the most) are not about the elements. Period. So, for Hernando, it's a demonstration of poor skating skills to fall on a step sequence. And I think we can all agree with that in general terms: step sequences are purely about blade to the ice (ie skating) and falls on them do not demonstrate good skating skills. However, for COP, it's a fall on an ELEMENT. So it doesn't matter if it's a jump, a spiral, a spin, etc. But just in case you don't believe me, lets examine this further.

    Savchenko/Szolkowy PCS for the LP
    8.57 8.21 8.57 8.79 8.89
    8.50 8.04 8.57 8.50 8.64
    8.54 8.32 8.64 8.57 8.75
    8.18 7.89 8.36 8.32 8.39

    Which PCS corresponds to the event where Savchenko lost the spin, stood around waiting for the element to be over, and went on skating? Can you tell? I can't and I just copied all these numbers over and should remember. (For those wondering, it's the third one).

    Or, we can compare Mirai Nagasu's PCS in her programs at US Nationals. Now, lets be honest, PCS can differ from short and long, but go check out her scores (Here). I'll give you a hint. The one where she whiffed the spin was the one where she demonstrated better .... well, everything.

    But, "ImaginaryPogue, Aliona didn't fall. Mirai didn't fall. She didn't resemble a human zamboni, so those numbers aren't applicable. Can you demonstrate that with falls?" I hear you ask. Lets find out.

    The challenge here is to find performances with a difference of multiple falls. And while Chan reigns supreme in the difference (3 falls, 1 fall, no falls; 1 fall, 3 falls, no falls in international competition), he's not the only top skater with multiple falls.

    Nobunari Oda, LP
    7.96 7.14 7.43 7.50 7.11 SC
    8.29 7.71 7.89 8.04 7.89 SA
    8.14 7.64 7.68 7.93 7.93 GPF

    Can you identify which belongs to Skate Canada, America (one fall each) and the GPF? Highlight beside the PCS to find out which belongs to which.

    Daisuke Takahashi, LP
    8.32 7.93 7.64 8.36 8.25 GPF
    8.39 7.93 8.36 8.50 8.61 NHK
    8.46 8.29 8.46 8.61 8.68 USA
    8.29 7.82 8.43 8.32 8.57 4CC

    Again, the variation isn't broad despite falls and/or multiple mistakes on elements.

    Carolina Kostner scored better PCS at Euros where she had a fall than at the GPF where she didn't. Kanako Murakami scored only THREE POINTS MORE in her PCS for a clean skate vs one where she had three falls (USA vs NHK). Denis Ten scored higher for a skate with FIVE falls than he did with a skate that had three falls.

    But here's the kicker, and perhaps my favourite

    Alexandra Paul/Mitchell Islam SD: the marking at CoR was such that it led one of our most esteemed posters to mention: "Skate Canada marking not happening here," clearly agreeing with Hernando that SC was outrageously marked. But if we check the PCS, we see...

    SC (no falls, major stumble on element): 5.79 5.75 5.82 6.07 5.54
    CoR (one element fall, two other ded'tn):5.93 5.68 5.64 5.86 5.68

    So, in Russia, a just-up-from juniors Canadian team scored virtually the same with a skate with considerably more flaws. In Russia.

    Hernando, I know - "COP Voodoo." But it's not. It's looking at the numbers. It's not magic. It's not mystery. It's not speculation. It's not Skate Canada bribing the world to mark Canadian skaters differently than others. It's not witchcraft, zombiedom, vampirism, occultism, quantum math, theoretical physics, micro-epistemological calculus or any other dismissive name you want to label it (and will label it in the future).

    You don't have to agree with it. I don't. I don't like the fact that PCS attempts to mark as if the elements don't exist (because elements are part of a program, so why shouldn't they be part of program component scores). I do think that a clean skate should be rewarded, and I'm not entirely convinced that COP does so properly. I'd like to see a broader range accepted within the PCS themselves and performance to performance, should it be so needed.

    Your go: can you explain why Skate Canada's marking was a farce?

  2. #32
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    Without specifically commenting on Skate Canada, I think there just has be a time when the judges say, that stunk, no gold medal for you. (I know, that's not in the spirit of the CoP.)

  3. #33
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    Of course, under any judging system, sometimes the judges have to say "That stunk, low marks for you," but at the end of the day everyone else stunk more so the least stinky performance gets the gold.

    Or "That stunk, no first place in this program for you" but the other program was pretty good an everyone else stunk in the other program, so the skater with one stinky program and a big lead in the other program gets the gold.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Without specifically commenting on Skate Canada, I think there just has be a time when the judges say, that stunk, no gold medal for you. (I know, that's not in the spirit of the CoP.)
    and yet Bolero in 2005 got how many 6.0s for performance when clearly that was the most lackluster think Michelle had done in quite a while? I don't think it's just CoP... it's favoritism. It's based on reputation judging, nothing more. That's why skaters come to practice with their game face on, why they play nice in the media, and otherwise are never out of competition... the four and a half minutes of actual competitive ice time makes up such a small percentage of what the judges actually judge.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    and yet Bolero in 2005 got how many 6.0s for performance when clearly that was the most lackluster think Michelle had done in quite a while? I don't think it's just CoP... it's favoritism. It's based on reputation judging, nothing more. That's why skaters come to practice with their game face on, why they play nice in the media, and otherwise are never out of competition... the four and a half minutes of actual competitive ice time makes up such a small percentage of what the judges actually judge.
    ^ That's true! When you go into the ring against the heavyweight champion, you can forget about trying to outpoint him. You have to knock him out, just like he knocked out the previous champ to gain the title.

    "I'm Michelle Kwan. You're not. If you want to beat me you better bring it!"

    As for all those 6.0's for Bolero, those were from the judges that forgot to give her a 6.0 the year before for Tosca. Sort of like a belated birthday present. Plus, that was the last year for 6.0 -- they had to do something with the last bagful.

  6. #36
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As for all those 6.0's for Bolero, those were from the judges that forgot to give her a 6.0 the year before for Tosca. Sort of like a belated birthday present. Plus, that was the last year for 6.0 -- they had to do something with the last bagful.
    Jenny Kirk, Sasha Cohen come to mind... Kimmie Meissner... I mean if we're just handing them out like halloween candy... (of course I remember so little of that competition because after I was the only one in my section not to go over the top fall over myself spout love chants to MK when she took the warm up ice and I was more concerned for my welfare than watching the skating )

  7. #37
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    PCS (where people complain the most) are not about the elements. Period.
    I don't find this to be a correct statement. Every single movement a skater makes is "Choreography", one of the 5 PCS. If a skater performs an element poorly, it will likely make their choreography worse. The same goes for "Interpretation" - everything is supposed to go to the music and if you perform a crappy looking element then the interpretation of the music at that moment in time is probably not good. The "Transitions" component is affected by falls. A good transition out of a jump is not considered to be crashing into the ice. If the skater's performance is noticably affected by the fall (such as frowning or tensing up) then that is yet another Program Component which suffers. "Skating Skills" are affected to some degree as well because you are not displaying control of the blade at that point in time.

    I actually think falls and other mistakes occasionally benefit the artistry of a program, though. Sometimes it actually does go with the music and if the skater recovers from that mistake with determination and doesn't make more mistakes, it becomes an inspirational statement about never giving up and having the presence of mind and poise to always be strong in the face of adversity. I think little bobbles in a program sometimes add character and a humanistic touch to the performance. Such as in Yagudin's "Man in the Iron Mask" at both the Olympics and Worlds in 2002, he nearly touches down to the ice on the landing of his last jump (the Triple Flip). Instead of disrupting the performance at all, though, he just continues on and in fact holds the hand up in the air that almost touched down, as if to say "look at how strong and in control I am! It doesn't matter if something goes wrong, I will persevere through it anyway!" It's a sentiment that goes very well with the music during that part of the program.

    There's a saying - "Sometimes the most important part of a fight is how you get back up from being knocked down."

    Also, look at what happens at the very end of this performance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qlDr-bv-Ko

    Could there have been ANY better choreography at that point in time than the butt plop she did? I really don't think so. It is hilarious and went perfectly with the beat of the music and her campy, trashy performance.

  8. #38
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see why all of this is a condemnation specifically of the CoP. Under 6.0 judging, too, the ISU did not provide instant replays to the audience while the judges were mulling over their marks, trying to decide how much to take off a skater's score for various perceived errors.

    For that matter, it is actually the television networks that provide the instant replays to the audience, not the officials or the league. In American football, the referee peers into an instant replay machine, but we don't get to see what he is seeing. Instead, we see the play over and over from various angles while the commentators tell us what they think.

    In figure skating, they do the same thing. They show replays on the jumbotron and slow motion views of the jumps in question, with commentary, while the tech specialists are looking at their own replays.
    I have been to the big Tennis Matches in Arthur Asche Stadium and they show instant replays because that is a crucial error in the Sport. The paying public has a right to know about how the sport is being played for scoring. The Instant Replay comes at the same time as the Referee calls the shot. No Television Network coverage can do that. It probably comes from the Stadium people who are giving their sports fans their money's worth. It probably is paid to the Stadium in its Rental of Premises by the Tennis BigWigs.

    One has to rely on the Tech Panel's honesty on what he sees with and without his closed circuit TV. Why not show this on the Jumbo Thon which can be picked up by the TV for the paying public to savour? In a Sport which allows for Partial Credits for incomplete Elements the points are crucial to the athletes' placements, and Fans deserve to know how these points are credited.

    To defend the CoP is not an issue. To make the Sport more understanding to the Public is! The 6.0 system is dead, so why compare the two?

  9. #39
    Gotta Have Music iluvtodd's Avatar
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    anonymous judging (not limited to fs?)

    skaters getting higher marks based on past reputation

    skaters getting lower marks because they haven't "paid their dues," yet skated technically/artistically better and more cleanly than those ranked higher

  10. #40
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    Win without the hardest jump/jumps - regressional result
    Win with only relying on jumps - inadequate result
    Win with transitions everywhere - modern trendy result
    Win with high PCS low TES - unconvincing result
    Win with multiple falls - outrageous result
    Win without any falls - need to be re-assessed result
    Win with or without ...... the judges have never ever produced universally satisfactory result.

  11. #41
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    One has to rely on the Tech Panel's honesty on what he sees with and without his closed circuit TV. Why not show this on the Jumbo Thon which can be picked up by the TV for the paying public to savour? In a Sport which allows for Partial Credits for incomplete Elements the points are crucial to the athletes' placements, and Fans deserve to know how these points are credited.
    I've sat behind the judges table at us nationals many times - they're getting the same shots as we are on the jumbotron. They don't have a magic camera that no one can see working and filming.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I don't find this to be a correct statement. Every single movement a skater makes is "Choreography", one of the 5 PCS. If a skater performs an element poorly, it will likely make their choreography worse. The same goes for "Interpretation" - everything is supposed to go to the music and if you perform a crappy looking element then the interpretation of the music at that moment in time is probably not good. The "Transitions" component is affected by falls. A good transition out of a jump is not considered to be crashing into the ice. If the skater's performance is noticably affected by the fall (such as frowning or tensing up) then that is yet another Program Component which suffers. "Skating Skills" are affected to some degree as well because you are not displaying control of the blade at that point in time.
    Do you think my statement is incorrect (as a fact) or do you think the judges demonstrate it to be false? Because I agree that it's incorrect in fact but not in practice, which makes me believe that the judges are being instructed so.

  13. #43
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I've sat behind the judges table at us nationals many times - they're getting the same shots as we are on the jumbotron. They don't have a magic camera that no one can see working and filming.
    Thats a half truth. They don't show all the jump landings which would make it instant, and those JumboThon showings are not the same as the official ones the Tech Panel sees. They don't show what the Tech Panel sees at all. It's all part of secrecy to prevent blokes like me from complaining (and causing another scandal).

  14. #44
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Thats a half truth. They don't show all the jump landings which would make it instant, and those JumboThon showings are not the same as the official ones the Tech Panel sees. They don't show what the Tech Panel sees at all. It's all part of secrecy to prevent blokes like me from complaining (and causing another scandal).
    the jumbotron shows the replays that the tv network chooses, because they're having their commentators do a replay. and the network is supplying the camera feed, so they get to choose what we the people see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    I had Johnny 3rd or 4th in Vancouver.

    He skated two solid programs which is more than I can say for Chan.
    Yes, Weir did, but unfortunately his choreography was very far from that of Chan.... And no way was Weir better than Takahashi, who was 5th in the freeskate.
    Last edited by Jaana; 04-20-2011 at 12:16 PM.

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