What is "heart?"

For me, Michelle's skating wasn't so much about "heart" as she wasn't an emotional skater. Angela Nikodinov skated with heart. Michelle was born to skate - like Kurt Browning was born to skate. The best non skating example is Michael Jordon. I wouldn't say he played with "heart" but his talent and competitive nature gave the appearance of bringing something different, something emotional to the court when it actuality, he was just better than you. Did she bring passion? Yes. Did she make you cry? Yes. But heart? I don't think so and I agree with Toni on this one - Michelle Kwan was about the win. There's a reason her best free skates and most golds came when she was down - she was trying to kick your butt.

Kwanford Wife said:

Did she make you cry? Yes. But heart? I don't think so and I agree with Toni on this one - Michelle Kwan was about the win. There's a reason her best free skates and most golds came when she was down - she was trying to kick your butt.

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I kind of agree even as the opposite of what you said could be true depending on our pov.

Making me cry by the way one skates feels all about IN and emoting or even some special circumstances surrounding the skater or family.

Your last thought, "she was trying to kick your butt" feels exactly to me like a skater or athlete with a competitive heart. EXACTLY what separated Mike from most other players. The guy HATED to LOSE.

The will to win is not something a coach or choreographer can teach. It comes from inside, not from Lori's choreo but from right about where the "heart" is located.

Maybe think of it as "competitive fire" but I am sure some US fans wish that whatever Michelle had we could see more of it in Mirai and Alissa at times.

To me it's an emotional investment in whatever you are performing whether it be acting, singing, dancing, skating, even painting. I think as far as skating is concerned, one performance that showed "heart" and "soul" was Eman's "Purple Rain" a few years back. I'm sure there are people who would disagree wholeheartedly, but that's how I see it.

This is heart.

She has heart here too in an earlier different situation, from the beautiful performance to the reaction to her marks.

Mathman

Is there really a difference between having heart and doing choreography really well? Between drawing in the audience and merely performing the program that you practiced? Is “emotional involvement” something that the audience supplies out of its imagination, rather than anything the skater does?

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I think, if a skater cares for what he is doing no matter what are the chances to win, how many audience are watching or what are the circumstances, that is having a heart. Thus it is important for skater, but the audience may not feel it and it is not about drawing in the audience.
I think many of the skaters who are not medal contenders, I mean, people that are not from 1st or 2nd group, have a heart, but may not have developed artistic abilities or memorable choreography.

On the past Olympic games, I think, all 3 ladies medalists had a heart, but I can't say the same about men. But maybe I'm not sensitive for them.

For me this is a good example of performance with heart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA87sgaG9L8

But, since there is no exact definition of what it is and there is no way to know it, I think everyone can be right.

An example this season, in my opinion, would be Sarah Meier's LP at Euros. You could tell she put everything out there, and the way she broke into tears at the end made me teary-eyed.

SkateSkates

An example this season, in my opinion, would be Sarah Meier's LP at Euros. You could tell she put everything out there, and the way she broke into tears at the end made me teary-eyed.

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Very good example. I was happy for her.

Posters above seem to be calling on performances of particular skaters as having heart in their skating. That's not the definition of "HEART". Skaters who do more than the accepted CoP performance will show an AMAZING performance.

HEART is strictly a Belief in oneself to Winning a Championship. Maybe you'll recall the musical Damn Yankees with the hit tune of Ya Gotta Have Heart (to believe in beating the Yankees).

Ryan and Alissa both need that gotta have Heart (belief in themselves) to win their championships with an amazing performance. They are not the odds on favorites. In fact, with the exception of Dai, Chan, Nobi, and Taka can Ryan have the heart to win? and with the exceptional talents of Mao and Yuna can Alissa have the heart to win? Let's hope so and with amazing performances.

Joesitz said:

HEART is strictly a Belief in oneself to Winning

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:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Cruel people sure do have a lot of heart, then!

Repeat "Heart is a Belief in Onself" to get better when ill; to heal when injured; to conquer fears, etc. etc. It does not have anything to do with the viewers' emotional feelings of a performance unless they are searching for a word to describe their feelings, and using heart. Athletes compete to win or plan their competitive career thusly.
It has everything to do with competitors Winning a Championship.

The heart of the matter is in the points of the CoP. I just don't see it in the athletes. However, there is the Will to Win in a performance, and that is obvious. (My style is better than yours cried the skater to himself)

The entire performance of a skater in the LP is in the heart of the music, and not in the 20% the CoP gives it. That is what may affect the Skater, and also a fan.

Blades of Passion said:

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Cruel people sure do have a lot of heart, then!

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Joesitz may have been talking about the meaning of "heart" as it has been used for decades in major sports.

I have no idea what your reply meant but here are a few examples of "heart" that have nothing to do with niceness let alone sequins, makeup and music interpretation.

Whether a person is kind or cruel has no bearing on whether they play with alot of heart.

One of my favorite hockey players, Bobby Clark was also one of the dirtiest players to ever lace up a pair of skates. But what a magnificent player he was and more famous for his "heart" than anything else.

He refused to quit regardless of the score and although other players were faster, bigger, stronger and had better shots none had Clark's heart.

I still remember when he was playing for Canada against the Russians back in the 70's. The Canadian coach said to his players between periods "Kharlamov is killing us, somebody has to stop him."

Clark took him off the ice and out of the game and series next shift with a two hander across his ankle. His ferocius play throughout the series exasperated the Russian team and led Canada to a comeback victory.

Clark, far from the most talented player on Team Canada was said to have led them with his heart. About the series Clark later said, "losing was not an option and I was willing to die for Canada."

Figure skating and many skating fans don't know the meaning of "heart" as it has been used to describe certain athletes in major sports.

Roy Keane, the "engine" of some great Manchester United teams was one of the meanest , nastiest sob's in the English Premier league. He was the captain and MVP of Manchester but nowhere near their most skillful player.

It was often said that he lead Manchester with his heart and his will to win led and inspired his teammates.

"Nice guys finish last" may not be part of skating lore but it is certainly a well known saying in many major sports.

Then there was Jackie Robinson. He had HEART.
After Branch Rickey told him what was expected of him Jackie asked, "but don't you want a player who will fight back?"

Rickey told him, "I want a player who is strong enough NOT to fight back."
Extraordinary circumstances called for an extraordinary athelete and MAN. That was Jackie Robinson.

Frank Carroll was heavily criticized by skating fans for treating Mirai like a competitive athlete and not a spoiled princess.

All because he challenged her committment and heart. My, my what a rough and crass sport CoP skating has become.

Daniel. I can't tell you how pleased I am to see you posting again! :agree:

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The question I was most curious about is the phrase, he/she "skates with her heart on her sleeve." Since the audience cannot really know what the performer is experiencing, what exactly is it that the skater does that invokes this reaction in us?

When I go to a comedy club, I go to laugh. I want to laugh, I am determined to laugh, and I find myself laughing even if the comic isn't very funny. Because if I didn't, then I was a fool to have spent my money and my time on the show.

I find the same thing happens to me at a skating competition. I pay my money and invest my time to be wowed, to experience vicariously the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and to enjoy having my soul transported to a better place. (I believe the official name of that place is Michelle-land. ) That being the case, a performance that is merely well-skated can do it for me -- because if it didn't, then I am like those sad-sacks that paid money to go see Charlie Sheen's current one-man show (no offense to the Sheen fans on the board. )

Blades of Passion said:

"Heart" is the most useless element needed to call forth Captain Planet and save the planet from eco terrorism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JeLcP7Xa5o

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omfg that's HYSTERICAL! I used to love that show and Ma-Ti/Heart was always the classic butt of jokes. LOL None of the kids wanted to be Heart.

Mathman

Daniel. I can't tell you how pleased I am to see you posting again!

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Actually I have to admit, I'm (pleasantly) surprised at this statement, but thank you!

The question I was most curious about is the phrase, he/she "skates with her heart on her sleeve." Since the audience cannot really know what the performer is experiencing, what exactly is it that the skater does that invokes this reaction in us?

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Well, I think it's a two-way road. If a skater wants to transmit a feeling, it will better reach the audience if skater has good artistic abilities, but it will be even better if he/she really cares/feels about what he/she is doing. If a skater is passionate by nature it will be easier for him to transmit a passion.

On the other hand the audience must be perceptive too, otherwise they simply won't let those feeling to get in. I don't think there is any way to obligate someone to empathize with any particular skater if he doesn't want to, so no matter what skater does, that person won't feel it. That is what sometimes happens with fans of some particular skater - as they want to see only THAT skater doing things THAT way they won't perceive anything else, because others are different.

The really interesting thing happens when a person who initially doesn't care or doesn't know about figure skating or a particular skater gets dragged in by some skater. That requires an exceptional talent, both in artistic and technical aspects, to get some person from outside into this.

Skaters like Midori Ito, Kristi Yamaguchi, Michelle Kwan... For me it was Yuna.

When I go to a comedy club, I go to laugh. I want to laugh, I am determined to laugh, and I find myself laughing even if the comic isn't very funny. Because if I didn't, then I was a fool to have spent my money and my time on the show.

I find the same thing happens to me at a skating competition. I pay my money and invest my time to be wowed, to experience vicariously the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and to enjoy having my soul transported to a better place. (I believe the official name of that place is Michelle-land. ) That being the case, a performance that is merely well-skated can do it for me -- because if it didn't, then I am like those sad-sacks that paid money to go see Charlie Sheen's current one-man show (no offense to the Sheen fans on the board. )

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Well, I don't know who Charlie Sheen is, but I wouldn't say it's a good idea to laugh if there is nothing to laugh about. I like to watch skating generally, even just the girls who are very average compared to the medal contenders and typically they don't have even well-skated performances... Of course, I'm very new to this and I have no idea if I'll be watching this after 5, 10 or 20 years, but if I feel that I have to excite myself to be excited, probably I would just stop watching it, or rather I would watch it occasionally, just to see if I can regain the passion from it once again.

Daniel5555 said:

On the other hand the audience must be perceptive too, otherwise they simply won't let those feeling to get in.

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I am perhaps kinda extending what is implied in this statement, but I often wonder whether cultural background may come into play too. I can think of quite a few Asian skaters, whose performances are perceived as not expressive or too technical or not outreaching in the figure skating forums, where majority of posters have Western cultural backgrounds. And I often have quite different perceptions. Well, just a thought...

mot said:

I am perhaps kinda extending what is implied in this statement, but I often wonder whether cultural background may come into play too. I can think of quite a few Asian skaters, whose performances are perceived as not expressive or too technical or not outreaching in the figure skating forums, where majority of posters have Western cultural backgrounds. And I often have quite different perceptions. Well, just a thought...

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That's an interesting thought but at the same time, what about say someone like Takahashi? Explosive performer that's recieved VERY well by his Asian and non-Asian fans. I remember my mother, who was born and raised in China, commented on his performance as a cut above the rest, as expressive rather than just technical compared to the other Japanese male figure skaters (her opinion, not mine). I believe a skater shows heart when s/he just loses him/herself in the music, let him/her body become a vehicle for the music to spring to life. That is what I believe heart is. And when that happens, all cultural barriers are transcended; for what else is universal but music? We may differ in terms of cultural norms, but I'm quite sure anyone can appreciate the power of Wagner or the organic beauty of Beethoven :3

Blades of Passion said:

"Heart" is the most useless element needed to call forth Captain Planet and save the planet from eco terrorism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JeLcP7Xa5o

Skaters would do better to have fire in their performances.

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I will love you forever for that recall.

Mathman said:

[When I go to a comedy club, I go to laugh. I want to laugh, I am determined to laugh, and I find myself laughing even if the comic isn't very funny. )

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:no: If I am not enjoying a performance I don't force myself to do so.

I've been bored during US Nationals, but that's why I go with friends, the disappointing moments (thankfully few every time) are always made better with a little bit of laughter/inside jokes/chat time.

And, of course, we fan girl over the Zamboni!

Tonichelle said:

:no: If I am not enjoying a performance I don't force myself to do so.

I've been bored during US Nationals, but that's why I go with friends, the disappointing moments (thankfully few every time) are always made better with a little bit of laughter/inside jokes/chat time.

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I guess I am thinking along the lines that a big part of entertainment is in the mind of the entertainee. Twelve-year-old girls go to see Justin Bieber and have a wonderful time shrieking and yelling with their friends. What exactly is it that young Mr. Bieber is doing to elicit this response? We can see 100 boys just as cute walking down the street any day, and they can sing as well, too.

I think the explanation is more social and psychological on the part of the audience than anything the performer is "projecting."

Mathman said:

I guess I am thinking along the lines that a big part of entertainment is in the mind of the entertainee. Twelve-year-old girls go to see Justin Bieber and have a wonderful time shrieking and yelling with their friends. What exactly is it that young Mr. Bieber is doing to elicit this response? We can see 100 boys just as cute walking down the street any day, and they can sing as well, too.

I think the explanation is more social and psychological on the part of the audience than anything the performer is "projecting."

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I am not so sure about that. Were you only such a diehard Kwan fan because of the skill she skated with and nothing else?

I liked Mirai's "Pirates" because it had such a playful feeling. It wasn't only the way she skated it but most definitely the playful mood she projected.

Was Yuna just skating to Bond Girl or Danse Macabre and not projecting anything? What about "Roxanne"?
Geez, she was projecting alot of personality to the crowd. I even feel it watching on YouTube.

LuLu had something beyond her skating at times that felt divine to me.
Plushy is always projecting something although I am not sure what it is always supposed to be.
But his fans love him for it.

Watch Plushy and then maybe a skater like Mroz. Tell me which skater is commanding the ice and with it possibly a higher degree of our attention.

Every fan can feel differently about this but "it" factor is not just a phrase someone made up. Skaters do project and it is no secret that it is not at the same level for all of them.

But charisma or whatever we want to call it is not the same as when an athlete is noted for having heart. That has nothing to do with charisma or projecting emotions and is about overachieveing or performing extremely well under pressure.

Being a "clutch" skater shows some heart. Skating well despite an injury shows heart.

Projecting emotions during a performance is something altogether different.

But if someone wants to say "Dai skated his heart out" in Vancouver I won't disagree. :think: