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Thread: What is "heart?"

  1. #31
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post


    Cruel people sure do have a lot of heart, then!
    Joesitz may have been talking about the meaning of "heart" as it has been used for decades in major sports.

    I have no idea what your reply meant but here are a few examples of "heart" that have nothing to do with niceness let alone sequins, makeup and music interpretation.

    Whether a person is kind or cruel has no bearing on whether they play with alot of heart.

    One of my favorite hockey players, Bobby Clark was also one of the dirtiest players to ever lace up a pair of skates. But what a magnificent player he was and more famous for his "heart" than anything else.

    He refused to quit regardless of the score and although other players were faster, bigger, stronger and had better shots none had Clark's heart.

    I still remember when he was playing for Canada against the Russians back in the 70's. The Canadian coach said to his players between periods "Kharlamov is killing us, somebody has to stop him."

    Clark took him off the ice and out of the game and series next shift with a two hander across his ankle. His ferocius play throughout the series exasperated the Russian team and led Canada to a comeback victory.

    Clark, far from the most talented player on Team Canada was said to have led them with his heart. About the series Clark later said, "losing was not an option and I was willing to die for Canada."

    Figure skating and many skating fans don't know the meaning of "heart" as it has been used to describe certain athletes in major sports.

    Roy Keane, the "engine" of some great Manchester United teams was one of the meanest , nastiest sob's in the English Premier league. He was the captain and MVP of Manchester but nowhere near their most skillful player.

    It was often said that he lead Manchester with his heart and his will to win led and inspired his teammates.

    "Nice guys finish last" may not be part of skating lore but it is certainly a well known saying in many major sports.

    Then there was Jackie Robinson. He had HEART.
    After Branch Rickey told him what was expected of him Jackie asked, "but don't you want a player who will fight back?"

    Rickey told him, "I want a player who is strong enough NOT to fight back."
    Extraordinary circumstances called for an extraordinary athelete and MAN. That was Jackie Robinson.

    Frank Carroll was heavily criticized by skating fans for treating Mirai like a competitive athlete and not a spoiled princess.

    All because he challenged her committment and heart. My, my what a rough and crass sport CoP skating has become.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Daniel. I can't tell you how pleased I am to see you posting again!

    --------------

    The question I was most curious about is the phrase, he/she "skates with her heart on her sleeve." Since the audience cannot really know what the performer is experiencing, what exactly is it that the skater does that invokes this reaction in us?

    When I go to a comedy club, I go to laugh. I want to laugh, I am determined to laugh, and I find myself laughing even if the comic isn't very funny. Because if I didn't, then I was a fool to have spent my money and my time on the show.

    I find the same thing happens to me at a skating competition. I pay my money and invest my time to be wowed, to experience vicariously the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and to enjoy having my soul transported to a better place. (I believe the official name of that place is Michelle-land. ) That being the case, a performance that is merely well-skated can do it for me -- because if it didn't, then I am like those sad-sacks that paid money to go see Charlie Sheen's current one-man show (no offense to the Sheen fans on the board. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-21-2011 at 08:46 PM.

  3. #33
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    "Heart" is the most useless element needed to call forth Captain Planet and save the planet from eco terrorism.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JeLcP7Xa5o
    omfg that's HYSTERICAL! I used to love that show and Ma-Ti/Heart was always the classic butt of jokes. LOL None of the kids wanted to be Heart.

  4. #34
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    Mathman
    Daniel. I can't tell you how pleased I am to see you posting again!
    Actually I have to admit, I'm (pleasantly) surprised at this statement, but thank you!

    The question I was most curious about is the phrase, he/she "skates with her heart on her sleeve." Since the audience cannot really know what the performer is experiencing, what exactly is it that the skater does that invokes this reaction in us?
    Well, I think it's a two-way road. If a skater wants to transmit a feeling, it will better reach the audience if skater has good artistic abilities, but it will be even better if he/she really cares/feels about what he/she is doing. If a skater is passionate by nature it will be easier for him to transmit a passion.

    On the other hand the audience must be perceptive too, otherwise they simply won't let those feeling to get in. I don't think there is any way to obligate someone to empathize with any particular skater if he doesn't want to, so no matter what skater does, that person won't feel it. That is what sometimes happens with fans of some particular skater - as they want to see only THAT skater doing things THAT way they won't perceive anything else, because others are different.

    The really interesting thing happens when a person who initially doesn't care or doesn't know about figure skating or a particular skater gets dragged in by some skater. That requires an exceptional talent, both in artistic and technical aspects, to get some person from outside into this.

    Skaters like Midori Ito, Kristi Yamaguchi, Michelle Kwan... For me it was Yuna.

    When I go to a comedy club, I go to laugh. I want to laugh, I am determined to laugh, and I find myself laughing even if the comic isn't very funny. Because if I didn't, then I was a fool to have spent my money and my time on the show.

    I find the same thing happens to me at a skating competition. I pay my money and invest my time to be wowed, to experience vicariously the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and to enjoy having my soul transported to a better place. (I believe the official name of that place is Michelle-land. ) That being the case, a performance that is merely well-skated can do it for me -- because if it didn't, then I am like those sad-sacks that paid money to go see Charlie Sheen's current one-man show (no offense to the Sheen fans on the board. )
    Well, I don't know who Charlie Sheen is, but I wouldn't say it's a good idea to laugh if there is nothing to laugh about. I like to watch skating generally, even just the girls who are very average compared to the medal contenders and typically they don't have even well-skated performances... Of course, I'm very new to this and I have no idea if I'll be watching this after 5, 10 or 20 years, but if I feel that I have to excite myself to be excited, probably I would just stop watching it, or rather I would watch it occasionally, just to see if I can regain the passion from it once again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel5555 View Post
    On the other hand the audience must be perceptive too, otherwise they simply won't let those feeling to get in.
    I am perhaps kinda extending what is implied in this statement, but I often wonder whether cultural background may come into play too. I can think of quite a few Asian skaters, whose performances are perceived as not expressive or too technical or not outreaching in the figure skating forums, where majority of posters have Western cultural backgrounds. And I often have quite different perceptions. Well, just a thought...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mot View Post
    I am perhaps kinda extending what is implied in this statement, but I often wonder whether cultural background may come into play too. I can think of quite a few Asian skaters, whose performances are perceived as not expressive or too technical or not outreaching in the figure skating forums, where majority of posters have Western cultural backgrounds. And I often have quite different perceptions. Well, just a thought...
    That's an interesting thought but at the same time, what about say someone like Takahashi? Explosive performer that's recieved VERY well by his Asian and non-Asian fans. I remember my mother, who was born and raised in China, commented on his performance as a cut above the rest, as expressive rather than just technical compared to the other Japanese male figure skaters (her opinion, not mine). I believe a skater shows heart when s/he just loses him/herself in the music, let him/her body become a vehicle for the music to spring to life. That is what I believe heart is. And when that happens, all cultural barriers are transcended; for what else is universal but music? We may differ in terms of cultural norms, but I'm quite sure anyone can appreciate the power of Wagner or the organic beauty of Beethoven :3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    "Heart" is the most useless element needed to call forth Captain Planet and save the planet from eco terrorism.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JeLcP7Xa5o

    Skaters would do better to have fire in their performances.
    I will love you forever for that recall.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    [When I go to a comedy club, I go to laugh. I want to laugh, I am determined to laugh, and I find myself laughing even if the comic isn't very funny. )
    If I am not enjoying a performance I don't force myself to do so.

    I've been bored during US Nationals, but that's why I go with friends, the disappointing moments (thankfully few every time) are always made better with a little bit of laughter/inside jokes/chat time.

    And, of course, we fan girl over the Zamboni!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    If I am not enjoying a performance I don't force myself to do so.

    I've been bored during US Nationals, but that's why I go with friends, the disappointing moments (thankfully few every time) are always made better with a little bit of laughter/inside jokes/chat time.
    I guess I am thinking along the lines that a big part of entertainment is in the mind of the entertainee. Twelve-year-old girls go to see Justin Bieber and have a wonderful time shrieking and yelling with their friends. What exactly is it that young Mr. Bieber is doing to elicit this response? We can see 100 boys just as cute walking down the street any day, and they can sing as well, too.

    I think the explanation is more social and psychological on the part of the audience than anything the performer is "projecting."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess I am thinking along the lines that a big part of entertainment is in the mind of the entertainee. Twelve-year-old girls go to see Justin Bieber and have a wonderful time shrieking and yelling with their friends. What exactly is it that young Mr. Bieber is doing to elicit this response? We can see 100 boys just as cute walking down the street any day, and they can sing as well, too.

    I think the explanation is more social and psychological on the part of the audience than anything the performer is "projecting."
    I am not so sure about that. Were you only such a diehard Kwan fan because of the skill she skated with and nothing else?

    I liked Mirai's "Pirates" because it had such a playful feeling. It wasn't only the way she skated it but most definitely the playful mood she projected.

    Was Yuna just skating to Bond Girl or Danse Macabre and not projecting anything? What about "Roxanne"?
    Geez, she was projecting alot of personality to the crowd. I even feel it watching on YouTube.

    LuLu had something beyond her skating at times that felt divine to me.
    Plushy is always projecting something although I am not sure what it is always supposed to be.
    But his fans love him for it.

    Watch Plushy and then maybe a skater like Mroz. Tell me which skater is commanding the ice and with it possibly a higher degree of our attention.

    Every fan can feel differently about this but "it" factor is not just a phrase someone made up. Skaters do project and it is no secret that it is not at the same level for all of them.

    But charisma or whatever we want to call it is not the same as when an athlete is noted for having heart. That has nothing to do with charisma or projecting emotions and is about overachieveing or performing extremely well under pressure.

    Being a "clutch" skater shows some heart. Skating well despite an injury shows heart.

    Projecting emotions during a performance is something altogether different.

    But if someone wants to say "Dai skated his heart out" in Vancouver I won't disagree.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-23-2011 at 03:21 PM.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    I am not so sure about that. Were you only such a diehard Kwan fan because of the skill she skated with and nothing else?
    I have a unique and personal reason for being a Michelle fan. She did something for me once (unknowingly) that I will never forget.

  12. #42
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^ Ha, DO TELL!

  13. #43
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    Well, however you became a fan, you chose a good skater to be a devoted fan to, Math. At least, I think so. I join you in that fandom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    That's an interesting thought but at the same time, what about say someone like Takahashi? Explosive performer that's recieved VERY well by his Asian and non-Asian fans. I remember my mother, who was born and raised in China, commented on his performance as a cut above the rest, as expressive rather than just technical compared to the other Japanese male figure skaters (her opinion, not mine). I believe a skater shows heart when s/he just loses him/herself in the music, let him/her body become a vehicle for the music to spring to life. That is what I believe heart is. And when that happens, all cultural barriers are transcended; for what else is universal but music? We may differ in terms of cultural norms, but I'm quite sure anyone can appreciate the power of Wagner or the organic beauty of Beethoven :3
    I agree. There are always some skaters who transcend cultural differences and become almost universal. And only truly gifted (or lucky?) can achieve that. Masterpieces of any art form too, as you have pointed out.

    However, how to and how much one expresses their feelings, emotions or 'heart' in that matter is a product of a culture, as well as individual traits. In a recent talk show on TV, Shizuka Arakawa and Daisuke Takahashi talked about their experience of having to show the programmes choreographed by foreign choreographers for the first time in Japan, and how embarrassed they were then. (Funnily enough, the programmes they said they were most shy to show were both done by Morozov.) They said they had not minded it much while practising abroad, but they had became too self-conscious and shy once back in Japan.

    It is a slightly different issue, but Daisuke also reckons there are certain things he could not yet express because of his lack of real life experiences. He thinks his choreographer Pauquale Camerlengo was much better at expressing the emotions contained in this season's long programme, and only men in their 40's or above, who have experienced ups and downs the life offers, can truly express intensity of the programme. 'I cannot beat men in the 30's and 40's on that', he said. He also says each mistakes and hardship he has to endure helps him to be a better performer. This is perhaps the reason why skaters in the twilight years of their competitive career can bring a greater degree of sophistication and complexity of expression to the programmes, which some younger skaters are not capable of.
    Last edited by mot; 04-23-2011 at 07:06 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have a unique and personal reason for being a Michelle fan. She did something for me once (unknowingly) that I will never forget.

    really, do tell. ^__^

    seriously, part of the reason this thread is a seven headed monster is because there are so many contexts for 'heart.' people mean different things when they say 'heart'. when i first read the thread title, i thought of an athlete playing hurt, finishing the game on a broken ankle, for example.

    olympia said MK moved on and is perfectly happy (apparently) without skating, so we don't know how much she loved it. i have to say, staying with one thing your entire life is not the only way to prove you love that thing--and just because i love somebody else now, doesn't mean i didn't love my first love when i was a silly teenager. michelle (thanks to danny, IMHO) did not hold the belief that she should make her skating her very life-work. it appears to me that she believed there was a time for skating, and a time for 'after.' danny emphasized that to prepare for 'after', eventually you should get yourself educated, and she's gone and done that. just because she wanted to kick *** and win--because she enjoyed competing--that doesn't prove she didn't have 'heart.' but of course YMMV, and of course i'm defending her now LOL because she has my heart.

    even the great pro kristi couldn't skate forever and is branching out. does that mean she's lost 'heart'?

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