The Russia coaches, imo, are not all that special nor are they inferior to non Russian coaches.
I believe the fans are confusing Russian skaters and coaches during the Soviet era with those of the Republic era.
I believe the Soviet System brought about their great skaters moreso than their coaches. Can you imagine a Government with an official Sports Department?
I have a lot of respect for Russia, whose contributions to figure skating are huge. I hope such a rule/demand is not instituted, for it would be such a step backwards.
First of all, I would not want a precedent established so that other countries in the future would think of doing the same thing. Second, it was mentioned by Adelina Sotnikova's coach that having Mao Asada come to Russia to train with Tarasova on a few occasions was eye-opening for Adelina and some of the other Russian students. So I would imagine that the benefit is often mutual. Third, I am afraid that figure skating would lose out on the potential to maximize the best partnerships towards creating the best figure skaters and performances, regardless of nationality.
I really hope they don't go with this idea.
Joe, I think the two coaches we're specifically talking about here are Morozov and Zhulin. Would it be possible for all of their non-Russian students to find other coaches? Certainly. Would it be detrimental to the sport of figure skating? Undebiably so.Originally Posted by Joesitz
It it the Russian coaches who are initiating this policy?It makes sense to me that now Russian coaches would want to help their native countrymen to show their best skating when they host the next Olympics in 2014. It's only natural.
I think we have to look at what Ptichka wrote: "But I don’t believe it; not least because a few days prior, I learned from a trusted source that Alexander Zhulin is almost ordered to stop working with the French ice dancers. ".
The key words here are "almost ordered". It does not matter what you or I think, Mathman; what matters is what "the leadership", as Ptichka delicately put it, thinks. Different nations have different ways; we need to remember that. We are not talking about the USA or Canada; we are talking about Russia, and how Russians do things.
When I posted that "It makes sense to me that now Russian coaches would want to help their native countrymen to show their best skating when they host the next Olympics in 2014. It's only natural.", perhaps I should have said "would be willing to help" instead of "would want to help", because I did not mean to give the impression that the impetus to exclude working with non-Russians is necessarily coming from the coaches themselves. I meant that if the coaches were asked to work exclusively with those who skate in Russia's name, until after Sochi, I could easily understand why they might say yes, because of what I have seen of Russian culture. Moreover, the Olympics is very much about each nation expressing their own national spirit and pride in their particular culture.
Dodhiyel, I think they might say "yes" because they've already invested a lot into moving to Russia and would lose more by cutting ties there yet again.
Yes, Ptichka, I completely agree that they would not want to cut ties there, especially Sasha Zhulin.
It's possible that the leadership might "suggest" that Russian coaches (the ones based in Russia, anyway) circle the wagons for the purpose of getting the national team in the best shape for Sochi. This is a--oh, I hesitate to use the loaded term "three-year plan"--that has a specific goal for a specific date in the near future. Some coaches might see that it is a service to their country of limited duration and so it would have different implications from just changing over forever to a nationalistic approach to training. If coaches do agree to do this, it wouldn't be wonderful but it would be understandable. But after Sochi, whatever happens there (and I'm sure the Russians will shine, given their commitment, their basic excellence, and the home-court advantage), I hope Russian coaches and skaters will once again become citizens of the world. The time for tribal skating is past, and it confers no advantage on any country. After all, look at what training with Western choreographers did for Shen and Zhao. Hybrid vigor really does lead to greater strength, and not just in agriculture.
The pressure on some Russian coaches to drop their foreign students isn't coming from within the Russian figure skating circle directly. Given the nature of public funding for this sport in Russia, my belief that is this push towards dropping foreign skaters is a misguided idea that somehow Russian coaches still have an exclusivity on the excellence of this sport in all disciplines, which is simply not the case anymore. Those who believe this could work are still living in the past, as if they were still in the USSR.
Looking at the current World Medalists in Singles who will all compete in Moscow except Lepisto who is out due to an injury, none of them has a Russian coach. Asada is coached by a Japanese. Kim is coached by an American and previously, from a Canadian for many years. Lepisto's coach is Finnish. Takahashi trains in Japan and coached by Japanese. Chan is coached by a combination of American and Canadian coaches. Joubert is trained by French coach in France. Russian single skating are no where near the top in the world right now and the men are especially poor. So what's the point of forcing Morozov to abandon Miki Ando and would he do it given the nature of their relationship? But assume Morozov is forced to turn Ando away, she will easily find another very competent coach in her homeland or North America, without a doubt. There is no shortage of quality coaches in Single skating in Japan.
In Pairs Skating, which is Russia's best discipline right now, the competitions comes from strong tradition of Pair Skating in both Germany and China, each of them have their own legacy of legendary coaches and sports machine to produce very competitive Pair Skaters. China's Harbin training compound produce successive and successful pair teams, replacing those who retired or about to retire. Age controversy aside, the expected impact of Russia limiting export of coaches to China is about zero. Should the Germans and the Chinese continue all the way to Sochi, it is quite possible that Russia may find itself again kept off the podium in Pairs Skating.
In Ice Dance, the two Russian born coaches of Zueva/Shpilband have turned down going back to Russia. Why should they? Shpilband is a defector from USSR, that alone says it all about how he feels towards Russia. In any event, he is pretty proud of his US citizenship. Zueva is now Canadian. Neither of these coaches have any serious ties with Russia and their only prominent Russian team is actually Zueva's son who was never able to make a name for himself in this sport. There is simply no shortage of good coaches from France and elsewhere. Again, would this policy improve Russia's chance at the podium 2014, the answer is most certainly no, absolutely not.
Last edited by wallylutz; 04-25-2011 at 02:33 PM.
This all is tsunami in the cup of water. It was Mishin who decided to concentrate on Gachinsky and Tuktamysheva till Sochi and even close his summer camps because foreign students distract him from the “main projects”. Then he call to other Russian coaches to do the same. Not only to “drop foreigners” but to work specifically with one or two students and give them as much time as possible. Morozov said “yes”, Zhulin said “no”. That's all. Neither government nor skating federation have real leverage to such self-minded, rather famous and financially independent persons.
Sorry, that's not consistent with what I heard at all.
Sorry Ptichka about confusing the issue. I still think the Soviet system was better than that of the Republic's. i do not have any problem with skaters changing coaches wherever that takes them. Changing coaches is not as common in Russia, akaik, but it in the USA.
It's difficult to compare skaters with natural ability with those who do not have that ability.
Miki Ando has natural spring in her jumps; and Evgeni has natural air rotations. I believe either one of them would not lose those blessings if they were to go to other coaches.
My concern is whether the natural abilities of certain skaters stand in the way of those skaters without?
If scores are being raised for body contortions in spinning, Rachael Flat is out of luck; if a skate is prone to have 'stage freight', changing a coach will not help. If skaters do not have a sense of music, I doubt anyone can help that skaters, and body types play a big roll as Mischin pointed out. So much is natural abilities. Yet skaters will change coaches for something that just isn't there to begin with. If TT got Yagudin a gold medal, she must do the same for me attitude. I don't think it works that way. Alexi had natural talent before he went to TT. What she did was to iron out the wrinkles in his skating, and gave him good practice advice. That is worth a change of coach, as Jeremy went to Sato/Dungeon.
I'm not big on Zhulin for bringing Abt down; and I think Morozov kills his male pupils with silly choreo.
Agreed. But which important Russian students will Morozov take on?
please correct me if i'm mis-understanding you, but...
morozov said yes to ... coming to russia, but not to dropping miki, right? or are you saying that he is dropping miki? wallylutz uses the phrase, 'the nature of their relationship' but it's been said that she's dating javier now, so...
miki-javier may be questionable hearsay, but it's been publicly said that she is taking next year off.
are we to read between the lines and conclude that she's taking a year to find another coach, since morozov will now only concentrate on russian students? in any case, didn't elene gedenashvilli recently switch to him--she's not russian russian. unless she's filling the girlfriend-excemption slot? ^_^
Last edited by skfan; 04-25-2011 at 04:22 PM.
He said that we know their names later.But which important Russian students will Morozov take on?
His own words: "I decided to impose a temporary moratorium to working with foreigners".morozov said yes to ... coming to russia, but not to dropping miki, right? or are you saying that he is dropping miki?
http://news.mail.ru/sport/news/figure-skating/5765140/
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