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Thread: Preliminary Round Men

  1. #46
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    I compared Kozuka's QR LP with his season best from TEB. The programs are identically laid out. His TES BV (78.44 vs 81.54) is lower due to the UR 4T, but other than 4T and 3Lo, his GOEs for other elements are around the same or a little better than at TEB, ending up with a 88 vs 89.63 at TEB. His PCS, however is 77 vs 80.80 from TEB so he only broke the 80 mark once.

    Without seeing the performance, it's hard to tell if the variation, especially the PCS, is due to his performance or the judging, to give us an idea of how the judging may go in general, strict or generous.

    Maybe they try to balance out the Special Ice bonus. However, the GOEs don't suggest that. It's the Tech Panel that lowered his TES.

    Kozuka, however, may still bring his best in the real competition.

    Seniorita, the NPC is the new scoring system developed by Joesitz - 0 points for a fall or a wrong edge. Deduction penalty stays. Now a fall = -1 no matter what jump it is.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 04-25-2011 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #47
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    Here's his 4t and 3a combo. Unfortunately, there isn't much else.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_jJs...utu.be#t=1m10s

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Kozu and Liebers!
    I love the rest of the of Q, Misha Ge and Hendrickx, yey!!!!!!

    What is this partial credit thing? New trend here, like artistry and all round skater?
    Partial credit is given for not showing complete technical ability. Some skaters can not do the element but they get credit for trying. it will never make sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Mathman, the effect of no partial credit will be completely different in the real competition, unlike with this mish mash group of QR skaters.
    How right you are SkateFiguring. I hope MM continues to report on partial credit. Can you imagine saying someone won the championship by attempting it? Maybe the prettiest could win.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Seniorita, the NPC is the new scoring system developed by Joesitz - 0 points for a fall or a wrong edge. Deduction penalty stays. Now a fall = -1 no matter what jump it is.
    I wish I could take the credit for "my system", but these were considered errors in the not so old, 6.0 system.

    A Wrong Edge Takeoff has several errors, the least of which shows that the attempted jump has no name since all the jumps are named by their takeoffs. other problems with the WET, there is no Counter Rotation because the skater is in Flip mode and he lands the jump in Flip mode. Conclusion: There was no Lutz to judge. 0 is the only possible score.

    A FALL has also a number of questionable parts to it, the most of which is that it disrupts the entire flow of the skater's program, and begs the question: what is the Senior Division all about? There is also the possibility that the competitor could never do a particular element so he Falls expecting partial credit. It has happened! it can also hide an UR because the skater can not actually do the compete rotations. The GoE is an automatic -1 deduction for disrupting the program. That is presumed to take care of the incomplete elements and the effect it has on the flow of the program. 0 should be the score of the element and a failing grade in the PCs.

    So hopefully MM will take the final score of the competitors individually and subtract the points given for partial credit. The winner would be the best skater that day.

  5. #50
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    Joe, it was interesting to me in these protocols that there was only one "e" call on a Lutz, but something like nine "e" calls on flips.

    This seems weird to me. The back outside edge is harder and it produces a certain amount of counter-rotational whether the skater intended it or not. So why do all the men want to make their flips harder by going off the wrong edge?

    The ladies are the opposite. Many more "e" calls on Lutzes than flips.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    A Wrong Edge Takeoff has several errors, the least of which shows that the attempted jump has no name since all the jumps are named by their takeoffs. other problems with the WET, there is no Counter Rotation because the skater is in Flip mode and he lands the jump in Flip mode. Conclusion: There was no Lutz to judge. 0 is the only possible score.
    Wouldn't it be more consistent to score this as a flip and give the skater 5.3 points for a satisfactory triple flip? If a flip is what he did by definition, then he should get credit for the flip that he did.

    A FALL has also a number of questionable parts to it, the most of which is that it disrupts the entire flow of the skater's program, and begs the question: what is the Senior Division all about? There is also the possibility that the competitor could never do a particular element so he Falls expecting partial credit. It has happened! it can also hide an UR because the skater can not actually do the compete rotations. The GoE is an automatic -1 deduction for disrupting the program. That is presumed to take care of the incomplete elements and the effect it has on the flow of the program. 0 should be the score of the element and a failing grade in the PCs.
    I think the scoring is not so generous as it seems. A fall does not mask under-rotation. In fact, the under-rotation is usually what causes the fall.

    In this event, look at the protocols for Brezina. On his quad, first he got a deduction of 3.1 points for under-rotation. Then he got an automatic -3 GOE for the fall. Then he got another automatic -1 deduction for the fall. In total, he lost 7.1 points. So instead of the base value of 10.3 he ended up with only 3.2 points for the element.

    As for the effect on program components, that is up to the individual judges. One judge gave him these marks:

    Skating Skills: 6.25
    Transitions: 5:00
    Performance/Execution: 5:50
    Choreography/Composition: 5.25
    Interpretation: 5.50

    Brezina usually gets in the sevens for a clean program. So I would say the judges nailed him pretty good.

  7. #52
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    ^^^The tech panel nailed him. The judges' scores were then automatic. So his quad is worth less than a 3T (4.10). The PCS listed were thrown out as the lowest so his PCS came in at 65, averaging 6.5 per component. His personal best PCS is 77.10 from last year's Worlds. Not sure of his scores this season which has not been good for him.

    Under the NPC system, he should have just gone for a 3T and done it prettily. PCS should be high then too.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 04-25-2011 at 05:58 PM.

  8. #53
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    Looking at the pageant style list of skaters from the Men's and Ladies preliminary has me wondering more than ever why ISU can't extend a few wildcard invitations.

    Does Miss Rumania realy deserve to be taking part in a World championship just because her federation paid their dues? If that is the case then we have a pageant for sure rather than a championship competition that includes the best skaters.

    Would it kill ISU to extend invitations to a few top 10 or even top 15 world ranked skaters and put them in the qualifier? Leave in the pageant contestants and just add a few skaters with top ISU rankings or who won GP medals during the season but missed the cut at a big federation.

    Why not do something that would make the event more exciting?

  9. #54
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    ^^^At the greatest pageant, Miss Universe or World or whatever, there is one entry per nation. It doesn't matters if your country produces the most beauties in the world/universe and they could have easily won the runners up as well.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    ^^^At the greatest pageant, Miss Universe or World or whatever, there is one entry per nation. It doesn't matters if your country produces the most beauties in the world/universe and they could have easily won the runners up as well.
    That may be true but pageants typically have one from as many countries that they can get to be an association member.

    That's what makes it a pageant and not a sport. Some of these skaters in the Men's and Ladies preliminaries are so far below a few top skaters sitting home that it feels strange. Or non-sporting.

    I think the qualifying procedures are badly outdated. Look to more successful sports like tennis and golf. They don't leave out top ten players so they can have "b" players taking part.

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    Where would Yuna Kim be if she wasn't given the first chance to compete internationally based on her national federation membership? Where would the sport of skating be in Korea, which is now one of the favorite places for skaters to perform?

    The total number of skaters at real competitions, at least by LP, will have been filtered and reduced. More screening and filtering methods may be introduced and tweaked, but a representative per member federation should stay a right. Every one should have the right to be a wild card.

    Nobody is made to watch all the rounds of the whole competition.

  13. #58
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    Yay for Misha Ge being in!! And yay for a youtube link to his program!! haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    That may be true but pageants typically have one from as many countries that they can get to be an association member.

    That's what makes it a pageant and not a sport. Some of these skaters in the Men's and Ladies preliminaries are so far below a few top skaters sitting home that it feels strange. Or non-sporting.

    I think the qualifying procedures are badly outdated. Look to more successful sports like tennis and golf. They don't leave out top ten players so they can have "b" players taking part.
    Don't these procedures have a lot to do with money? It would be interesting if Figure skating could go as long as a tennis tournament and you have round one going to a final. Are you saying there is a problem with everyone competing against each other at the same time?

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Where would Yuna Kim be if she wasn't given the first chance to compete internationally based on her national federation membership? Where would the sport of skating be in Korea, which is now one of the favorite places for skaters to perform?

    The total number of skaters at real competitions, at least by LP, will have been filtered and reduced. More screening and filtering methods may be introduced and tweaked, but a representative per member federation should stay a right. Every one should have the right to be a wild card.

    Nobody is made to watch all the rounds of the whole competition.
    Yuna would be right where she is now. The girl has never missed a podium.

    I don't mind so many non-competitive skaters at Worlds. The truth is there are only a few who have chances to contend for medals. It just feels dumb to leave a few of those skaters out of the event which why I wish they would add wildcards and let them compete in the preliminary.

    How could that possibly hurt ISU or the sport of figure skating? It also makes the GP series less important since winning a medal or two in the GP's carries no weight in qualifying for Worlds.

    It might strengthen skating to make the GP's more important rather than less important.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-25-2011 at 06:49 PM.

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