Men's Short Program | Page 32 | Golden Skate

Men's Short Program

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
He missed a jump completely. No combo.

This is a point I brought up before. Just about everyone not named Chan doing quad in SP has to do it as a combo due to lack of step entry. When the quad's landing is not perfect, it hurts the 2nd jump, from downgrade, e.g. Baradley's 2T, to a total miss, e.g. Joubert. Chan has the option of tacking a 3T after his 3F if the 4T landing is not optimal. I was so glad he didn't do a 3F/3T out of habit, because I had developed the habit of seeing that combo. Whew! No Oda was pulled. I might have!

I wasn't talking about what Brian missed. About the rest of his program.
 

Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
One has to realize that some people prefer "Fun" programs moreso than serious. It, imo, contributes to the sissy reputation the sport has. Javier is a good skater who should get his choreograpy away from Morozov who likes to experiment with his male students.

I think Javier would have scored much better than with the Malaguenas of Florent and Brian, if he had used it instead of the kiddish music and costume.

Maybe, but also he could have been overlooked as being the lone spaniard skating to a warhorse... While I wouldn't call the theme of the program my favorite, I like that he gets noticed for his originality, and that he doesn't shy away in the interpretation.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
One has to realize that some people prefer "Fun" programs moreso than serious. It, imo, contributes to the sissy reputation the sport has. Javier is a good skater who should get his choreograpy away from Morozov who likes to experiment with his male students.

I think Javier would have scored much better than with the Malaguenas of Florent and Brian, if he had used it instead of the kiddish music and costume.

They aren't skating to Malaguena. They're skating to "Once Upon a Time in Mexico"
 

pista04

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Read through most of the thread, but not all, so hopefully not repeating!! If I am, my bad!

Interesting note: if standings stay this way, both Canada and USA lose their 3 spots for next year. =[
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Read through most of the thread, but not all, so hopefully not repeating!! If I am, my bad!

Interesting note: if standings stay this way, both Canada and USA lose their 3 spots for next year. =[

Canada keeps theirs. Chan's in first.
 

Chemistry66

Mmmmm, tacos.
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Canada keeps theirs. Chan's in first.

Yeah, but Reynolds is in 19th and Russell is in 21st. It's the total of the two highest has to be 13 or less, so one of the two would have to jump to at least 12th for 3 spots for Canada.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Yeah, but Reynolds is in 19th and Russell is in 21st. It's the total of the two highest has to be 13 or less, so one of the two would have to jump to at least 12th for 3 spots for Canada.

Oh, I forgot -- for some reason I thought if someone finished 1st the country got 3 spots...is that only Jr. Worlds?
 

Chemistry66

Mmmmm, tacos.
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Oh, I forgot -- for some reason I thought if someone finished 1st the country got 3 spots...is that only Jr. Worlds?

That's if there's only 1 skater from a country in the whole competition. They have to finish 1st (or 2nd I think, or maybe just medal) to get 3 spots for the next year.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
People may be unclear on what the performance/execution score criteria are. The criteria encompass a lot more than just what we colloquially think of as a good performer. And some of what people are crediting to this score actually goes into interpretation/timing. So to review, the criteria for the score are:

• Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
• Carriage
• Style and individuality/personality
• Clarity of movement
• Variety and contrast
• Projection

I've removed the ones that pertain only to pairs and ice dancing (unison and such). Chan has great carriage. It reminds me of older skaters from the 70s and before. It's all very elegant and straight, nothing excessive. And that goes right into clarity of movement. Every move and body line is thought out and precisely placed. I think he has it over Daisuke in those areas, while with this particular SP and this particular performance, he's not a slouch in the other criteria, too.

Now I do agree that Daisuke is the best when it comes to projection and individual style/personality. But those are only two of the criteria.

As it is, their score here is practically tied (and could've gone a different way with a different panel). It doesn't seem unfair to me given the rules.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I do think Takahashi should outscore Chan by alot on performance and interpretation. It wouldnt make much difference in the end between the two right now though.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I guess one could only fair compare them if they were skating to the same music and choreo to see who does it better, but I think Dai-kun has a spark that Chan doesn't, which for me is what gives that little big difference in the performance.
Sorry, but MM is correct. Since competitive figure skating permits various styles, the styles are what makes a fan or audience member sit up and cheer. Dai does not get me interested in his flamboyant style, and that is the cornerstone of his performances since he started competing. his one attempt at lyrical in an R&J routine, looked to me like he couldn't wait for the bombastic music to begin.

It could happen that I might tire of Chan's lyrical style some day, but his musicianship is so together with this style, I can't think of even comparing it with Takahashi.

There are skater who do not have a style, and Dai's is better than none.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
On the two American Newbies. I watched Takahashi in 2004 Worlds and Joubert in 2003 Worlds. Both were green and both showed some potential for the future. Dornbush and Miner skated well in their debuts in 2011. Time will tell what that experience will bring for the future.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
It seems to me that there is an across the board GOE grade inflation this year. especially on the hardest elements. A satisfactory quad starts at +1 and goes up from there.

I do think Quad combinations are still underscored in terms of base value but the unfair disparity in GOE value between step sequences (getting double GOE if you happen to get the Level 4 call) already gave Chan a larger technical advantage in that realm than he deserved.

Just watched Joubert, Amodio, Bradley, and Miner's SPs.

Without getting into protocols, I prefer Joubert's SP a lot better than the others, choreographically and performance wise, powerful and energetic. Bradley's jumps were always wild to me. He's so slow everything else (wanted to avoid this point because it's getting old, but I can't.) No way he should be higher than Joubert.

Joubert definitely has better speed, basic skating, and posture than Bradley. A better program as well. He demolished that lead in PCS by screwing up his Quad and not doing a combination at all, though. That's essentially 2 mistakes right there. His non-jump technical elements don't pull him like some of the other competitors.

Watching the performances again, Ross Miner is even better than I recalled. I thought I remembered a small bobble on a spin (too bad the audience doesn't get a review of all the elements the way sitting judges do at the competition) but they were all solid and his 3Lutz-3Toe combination was massive with a flowing leg line on the way out. I already thought his program was the best of the Americans but I gave Bradley a slight advantage because of the better Triple Axel and more difficult combination. Looking at the elements again, Miner definitely should have lead the Americans (so of course the judges only had him in 13th).

Denis Ten was really boring, so I actually do think Joubert deserved to be in 12th ahead of him. I still don't think Joubert deserved to top any of the Americans, though. He should have at least put a 2Toe on the end of his 3Flip after missing the Quad combination.
 

jan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Patrick Chan was scored correctly. He executed the most difficult technical elements perfectly (while all his closest competitors attempted less difficult elements and made mistakes). His skating skills are not in doubt. While in the past, I've not been totally on board with Chan's performance ability, with this program Nichols created a great program for Chan and he expanded his expression to live up to it. It's a very laid back piece, but done with very old school lines and posture. He skates impossibly intricate steps at breakneck speeds while looking like he's strolling through a park. It's a combination of all the best things about the older and newer styles of skating.

I haven't been a fan of some of the things Chan said. But this is one of the greatest SP performances in skating history. You're missing out if you let personal fandom grievances prevent you from enjoying it.


Well said!!!!
 

Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
Sorry, but MM is correct. Since competitive figure skating permits various styles, the styles are what makes a fan or audience member sit up and cheer. Dai does not get me interested in his flamboyant style, and that is the cornerstone of his performances since he started competing. his one attempt at lyrical in an R&J routine, looked to me like he couldn't wait for the bombastic music to begin.

It could happen that I might tire of Chan's lyrical style some day, but his musicianship is so together with this style, I can't think of even comparing it with Takahashi.

There are skater who do not have a style, and Dai's is better than none.

Sorry, while you may find Dai's style uninteresting but that doesn't mean Chan is above him, that might be your perception, as mine is that Daisuke is above Chan in that area. There is no "correct or incorrect" answer in this topic, it is a matter of likes and dislikes.

Objectively one can only compare two objects under the same parameters (same music, same choreo, etc). But FS is not a lab. If Chan skated to the most lyrical ballet, and Daisuke skated to his cyber-swan, how could we tell who is more engaged in his performance when there are two completely different types of music? here it comes to a matter of taste, and so it becomes a subjective topic. But that's my opinion, and I'm no figure skater or judge or any type of expert.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Sorry, but MM is correct. Since competitive figure skating permits various styles, the styles are what makes a fan or audience member sit up and cheer. Dai does not get me interested in his flamboyant style, and that is the cornerstone of his performances since he started competing. his one attempt at lyrical in an R&J routine, looked to me like he couldn't wait for the bombastic music to begin.

Joe, this is a baffling assessment of Takahashi's abilities. He by far the most versatile performer competing. He did lyrical very well in both his 2006 LP and 2007 SP. His R&J was simply not a very good program - it was mostly about the jumps and frantic footwork sequences, thanks to Morosov's guidance.

I'm not sure why you are faulting him for being flamboyant in his SP this year when that's what the music calls for! You are supposed to skate to the music! Look at Javier Fernadez's SP in comparison, who is using the same music. It's a caricature and does not exhibit flamboyance in service of the music as well as Takahashi's program.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
...the unfair disparity in GOE value between step sequences (getting double GOE if you happen to get the Level 4 call)...

Are you saying that the tech specialists are not consistent in calling levels? So it is just a matter of whimsy whether someone gets a chance for extra high GOEs in this category?
 
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