Men's Short Program

[Joesitz]

I guess one could only fair compare them if they were skating to the same music and choreo to see who does it better, but I think Dai-kun has a spark that Chan doesn't, which for me is what gives that little big difference in the performance.

Sorry, but MM is correct. Since competitive figure skating permits various styles, the styles are what makes a fan or audience member sit up and cheer. Dai does not get me interested in his flamboyant style, and that is the cornerstone of his performances since he started competing. his one attempt at lyrical in an R&J routine, looked to me like he couldn't wait for the bombastic music to begin.

It could happen that I might tire of Chan's lyrical style some day, but his musicianship is so together with this style, I can't think of even comparing it with Takahashi.

There are skater who do not have a style, and Dai's is better than none.

[Joesitz]

On the two American Newbies. I watched Takahashi in 2004 Worlds and Joubert in 2003 Worlds. Both were green and both showed some potential for the future. Dornbush and Miner skated well in their debuts in 2011. Time will tell what that experience will bring for the future.

[SkateFiguring]

So nobody has done a NPC scoring of the skaters yet?

[Mathman]

So nobody has done a NPC scoring of the skaters yet?

Chan, 93.02.

[Blades of Passion]

It seems to me that there is an across the board GOE grade inflation this year. especially on the hardest elements. A satisfactory quad starts at +1 and goes up from there.

I do think Quad combinations are still underscored in terms of base value but the unfair disparity in GOE value between step sequences (getting double GOE if you happen to get the Level 4 call) already gave Chan a larger technical advantage in that realm than he deserved.

Just watched Joubert, Amodio, Bradley, and Miner's SPs.

Without getting into protocols, I prefer Joubert's SP a lot better than the others, choreographically and performance wise, powerful and energetic. Bradley's jumps were always wild to me. He's so slow everything else (wanted to avoid this point because it's getting old, but I can't.) No way he should be higher than Joubert.

Joubert definitely has better speed, basic skating, and posture than Bradley. A better program as well. He demolished that lead in PCS by screwing up his Quad and not doing a combination at all, though. That's essentially 2 mistakes right there. His non-jump technical elements don't pull him like some of the other competitors.

Watching the performances again, Ross Miner is even better than I recalled. I thought I remembered a small bobble on a spin (too bad the audience doesn't get a review of all the elements the way sitting judges do at the competition) but they were all solid and his 3Lutz-3Toe combination was massive with a flowing leg line on the way out. I already thought his program was the best of the Americans but I gave Bradley a slight advantage because of the better Triple Axel and more difficult combination. Looking at the elements again, Miner definitely should have lead the Americans (so of course the judges only had him in 13th).

Denis Ten was really boring, so I actually do think Joubert deserved to be in 12th ahead of him. I still don't think Joubert deserved to top any of the Americans, though. He should have at least put a 2Toe on the end of his 3Flip after missing the Quad combination.

[jan]

Patrick Chan was scored correctly. He executed the most difficult technical elements perfectly (while all his closest competitors attempted less difficult elements and made mistakes). His skating skills are not in doubt. While in the past, I've not been totally on board with Chan's performance ability, with this program Nichols created a great program for Chan and he expanded his expression to live up to it. It's a very laid back piece, but done with very old school lines and posture. He skates impossibly intricate steps at breakneck speeds while looking like he's strolling through a park. It's a combination of all the best things about the older and newer styles of skating.

I haven't been a fan of some of the things Chan said. But this is one of the greatest SP performances in skating history. You're missing out if you let personal fandom grievances prevent you from enjoying it.

Well said!!!!

[Hikaru]

Sorry, but MM is correct. Since competitive figure skating permits various styles, the styles are what makes a fan or audience member sit up and cheer. Dai does not get me interested in his flamboyant style, and that is the cornerstone of his performances since he started competing. his one attempt at lyrical in an R&J routine, looked to me like he couldn't wait for the bombastic music to begin.

It could happen that I might tire of Chan's lyrical style some day, but his musicianship is so together with this style, I can't think of even comparing it with Takahashi.

There are skater who do not have a style, and Dai's is better than none.

Sorry, while you may find Dai's style uninteresting but that doesn't mean Chan is above him, that might be your perception, as mine is that Daisuke is above Chan in that area. There is no "correct or incorrect" answer in this topic, it is a matter of likes and dislikes.

Objectively one can only compare two objects under the same parameters (same music, same choreo, etc). But FS is not a lab. If Chan skated to the most lyrical ballet, and Daisuke skated to his cyber-swan, how could we tell who is more engaged in his performance when there are two completely different types of music? here it comes to a matter of taste, and so it becomes a subjective topic. But that's my opinion, and I'm no figure skater or judge or any type of expert.

[Blades of Passion]

Sorry, but MM is correct. Since competitive figure skating permits various styles, the styles are what makes a fan or audience member sit up and cheer. Dai does not get me interested in his flamboyant style, and that is the cornerstone of his performances since he started competing. his one attempt at lyrical in an R&J routine, looked to me like he couldn't wait for the bombastic music to begin.

Joe, this is a baffling assessment of Takahashi's abilities. He by far the most versatile performer competing. He did lyrical very well in both his 2006 LP and 2007 SP. His R&J was simply not a very good program - it was mostly about the jumps and frantic footwork sequences, thanks to Morosov's guidance.

I'm not sure why you are faulting him for being flamboyant in his SP this year when that's what the music calls for! You are supposed to skate to the music! Look at Javier Fernadez's SP in comparison, who is using the same music. It's a caricature and does not exhibit flamboyance in service of the music as well as Takahashi's program.

[wallylutz]

Morozov who likes to experiment with his male students

Did I read this correctly or am I reading a double entendre here.

[Mathman]

...the unfair disparity in GOE value between step sequences (getting double GOE if you happen to get the Level 4 call)...

Are you saying that the tech specialists are not consistent in calling levels? So it is just a matter of whimsy whether someone gets a chance for extra high GOEs in this category?

[Blades of Passion]

I totally agree with you Blades of Passion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joubert is always overscored!!!!It's crazy!

Not today. His SP is his best he has ever had.

I find Joubert's 2008 SP to be the best he's ever had (courtesy of Kurt Browning). I think his 2009/2010 SP was also better for him than this season's SP because he was more attuned to the movements. His SP this season is choreographically more complex but Joubert isn't always comfortable performing the movements.

Patrick Chan was scored correctly. He executed the most difficult technical elements perfectly (while all his closest competitors attempted less difficult elements and made mistakes). His skating skills are not in doubt. While in the past, I've not been totally on board with Chan's performance ability, with this program Nichols created a great program for Chan and he expanded his expression to live up to it. It's a very laid back piece, but done with very old school lines and posture. He skates impossibly intricate steps at breakneck speeds while looking like he's strolling through a park. It's a combination of all the best things about the older and newer styles of skating. This is one of the greatest SP performances in skating history.

Technically there is no doubt that it's one of the greatest SP performances in skating history (even if still overscored, as I talked about). I also agree with you that the display of basic skating in the program is among the best ever in history. I do not think the program is a masterful one, though, and I do not think Chan's performance was masterful. For me, his last spin in the program had little to do with the music and the first part of the footwork sequence also does not quite gel with the mood.

But the real problem is that this program is about Patrick Chan trying to pick up a girl at a bar. He does not give off that kind of swagger but rather seems like a middle school student playing during recess at school. He doesn't have deep gravitas in his skating either, which then makes programs like Phantom of the Opera have a certain triteness.

[alexeifan]

Why on earth is Artur in 4th place? He had a mishap on his 3loop, this is obviously home ice gift... how embaressing to the sport!!

[sacrebleu]

But the real problem is that this program is about Patrick Chan trying to pick up a girl at a bar. He does not give off that kind of swagger but rather seems like a middle school student playing during recess at school. T He doesn't have deep gravitas in his skating either, which then makes programs like Phantom of the Opera have a certain triteness.

I think I'm going to pee from laughing.

[Serious Business]

Watching the programs I missed in order! Thoughts...

Viktor Pfiefer — Only a matter of time before he debuts a spin where he puts his foot in his mouth. Guy seems to favor awkward contorted positions that don't actually show that much flexibility.

Min-Seok Kim — Nice 3axel! Mediocre everything else. But wait, a guy doing an I-spin? Very impressive.

Richard Dornbush — His posture is killing me! Why can't he stand up straight? That Spanish guitar music is horribly wrong for him. He is way too laid back to generate that kind of intensity. But other than that, everything was good despite a few control issues here and there.

Nan Song — Requiem for a Dream? AAAAAH! When you call for water in hell, that piece is the hold music you get. Slow, unmusical and not very controlled skating despite the landed jumps.

Denis Ten — Lovely triple axel. Such a graceful run out. He shows many flashes of grace, control and total confidence, but then seems to lose it at other moments.

[Mathman]

But the real problem is that this program is about Patrick Chan trying to pick up a girl at a bar.

Does a skating program have to be about something? Can't it just be about skating?