Men's LP

Serious Business · Apr 28, 2011

bekalc said:
Do we really need to get into it how Patrick can skate through the music a bit. Its not just me Wally saying it, its plenty of people who have said it. Kozuka is more musical.

What do you mean by skating through the music? We must define it very differently because that is one criticism I find hard to fathom about Chan. He skates one of the most transition-filled programs ever, with more skating moves timed to musical phrases and highlights than most skaters ever. Skating through music would imply an empty program, which is very much the opposite of Chan. Skating through the music would be someone who does very little transitions, and just does basic stroking through the music.

Perhaps you mean his choreography and movement aren't appropriate to the music for your taste? Or he doesn't have enough non-skating movement to the music? I disagree with that, his non-skating movement is about average in amount.

I mean, someone like Amodio in his current FS, standing there and mouthing the lyrics is totally feeling, reacting and moving to the music. But that is certainly not skating to the music. And it should not be rewarded in the PCS.

Ilvskating · Apr 28, 2011

Serious Business said:
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure Kozuka got the second highest PCS ever awarded in figure skating. The people who want it higher do so because they want it to be closer to Chan's, so it is about Chan as always (it's a Chan's world, baby). That is a perfectly fair point to raise, as the PCS are worded as being comparative in some ISU rules and memos. But let's be honest that it isn't about Kozuka alone for people who thinks his PCS should be even higher.

I disagree. While Kozuka has exceptional basics and skated a very intricate program with unusual command, he's still not on Chan's level in either ice command or the intricacy of the program. Don't get me wrong, they are both in the stratosphere, and unmatched by anyone else in this competition, but it is necessary to compare them for the discussion at hand.

Then there are parts of Kozuka's presentation I find to be outright below par. His movement is very reserved. Most of his movement stays close to the core, even if he extends his arms he keeps them close to the body. And if he's not extending them, the arms just look limp. And with this desire to contract his body, even his flourishes look hesitant, unexpansive. It really detracts from a dancer's ability to fully express movement, emotion and music.

Of course, this is just one little con among the many pros of Kozuka's skating, but it's one that affects a few of the PCS criteria, and when we're in the super nitpickery stage of exactly how superhumanly high his PCS should be, it's relevant. Therefore, I'm perfectly fine with him having the second highest PCS ever for his performance here. Truly a horrible shame, but I'm sure he'll recover.

Wow, serious Business, I really love your post. That was something lacking from Kozuka that I had a feeling but just could not grasp it. I was wondering if it was extention problem but you're spot on. It was the lack of abundance and attack, being to cautious. OK, I'm going to stop. You said it all and it can't be put in a better way

Ilvskating · Apr 28, 2011

kensal said:
Kozuka's arm movements perfectly fit the choreography for dance in both SP and LP. And he does express movement and music great. This is practically comparing apples and oranges which again proves how subjective PCS for the most part are. That's why I share some people's opnion that while Chan's win is not questionable, 10 points or even 9.5 points is stretching too far. I would have PCS for Chan and Kozuka in 2 point difference range and I would let the judges to decide who should get 2 points more between those two. Personally for me Kozuka lost by one quad, even though ironically he got higher TES for simply executing those techs much better than Chan.

There is nothing ironica here. Kozuka did two 3A and one quad, Chan did two quads and one 3A, but I think Chan did a 2T instead of 3T. That should explain the TES.

kensal · Apr 28, 2011

Ilvskating said:
There is nothing ironica here. Kozuka did two 3A and one quad, Chan did two quads and one 3A, but I think Chan did a 2T instead of 3T. That should explain the TES.

Well, that was my point.

Blades of Passion · Apr 28, 2011

Serious Business said:
Skating through the music would be someone who does very little transitions, and just does basic stroking through the music.

See, this is one of the BIGGEST misnomers in the judging of modern day figure skating. Doing a transition does not mean you are skating to the music. You can skate through the music while doing a transition in exactly the same way as you can by doing basic stroking. If the transition is executed solely because it's a transition, thus an attempt to gain more points, that does not mean the transition had anything to do with the music.

Basic stroking should not be reviled. Stroking can and should be timed to the music. The way a person strokes across the ice is choreography. That's part of why Michelle Kwan's programs are so masterful - the tempo and positioning of her blades was frequently perfect for the program. I find that the people who call programs "empty" are in fact sometimes just blind to those kinds of nuances.

The programs these days are adding transitions for little or no choreographic/interpretive purpose at all. The skaters who do this should be gaining on the Transitions mark, sure, but their Choreography and Interpretation components should be going DOWN as a result.

BTW, I mostly agree with your other post regarding the assessment of Kozuka's performance. His LP this season was a huge step down from his LP's in 2009 and 2010. However, I disagree with what you said about Amodio to a degree. While too much posing can be bad, a lot of the "stationary" movements Amodio performs require full-body dedication that take up energy just like stroking around the rink does. There is certainly a time and a place for stationary movement to be artistically effective. I would argue that Amodio's version of the program at Worlds was not nearly as effective as the earlier versions from the season, though. His movements captured the raw intensity and dynamite quality of the music but after the music changed and the lyrics were added it became total pap.

Ilvskating · Apr 28, 2011

kensal said:
Well, that was my point.

I really don't understand your logic. Sorry.

kensal · Apr 28, 2011

Ilvskating said:
I really don't understand your logic. Sorry.

The logic is that Kozuka won TES by GOEs not by base.

kensal · Apr 28, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
See, this is one the BIGGEST misnomers in the judging of modern day figure skating. Doing a transition does not mean you are skating to the music. You can skate through the music while doing a transition in exactly the same way as you can by doing basic stroking. If the transition is executed solely because it's a transition, thus an attempt to gain more points, that does not mean the transition had anything to do with the music.

Basic stroking should not be reviled. Stroking can and should be timed to the music. The way a person strokes across the ice is choreography. That's part of why Michelle Kwan's programs are so masterful - the tempo and positioning of her blades was frequently perfect for the program. I find that the people who call programs "empty" are in fact sometimes just blind to those kinds of nuances.

The programs these days are adding transitions for little or no choreographic/interpretive purpose at all. The skaters who do this should be gaining on the Transitions mark, sure, but their Choreography and Interpretation components should be going DOWN as a result.

ITA, the term "transitions" became one of those buzzwords.

Serious Business · Apr 28, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
See, this is one the BIGGEST misnomers in the judging of modern day figure skating. Doing a transition does not mean you are skating to the music. You can skate through the music while doing a transition in exactly the same way as you can by doing basic stroking. If the transition is executed solely because it's a transition, thus an attempt to gain more points, that does not mean the transition had anything to do with the music.

As per the ISU's own publications, you are partially right. Transitions do include movement unrelated to moving on the ice. But the ISU program components explanation does stress that crosscuts should be minimized:

Transitions can be short or long, including the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the music. (Minimum use of cross-cuts)

That would cut out Kwan in her later years and someone like Plushenko.

Blades of Passion · Apr 28, 2011

As per ISU's own publications, they are frequently wrong and clueless about how to run CoP.

fscric · Apr 28, 2011

Sigh! This bitching about Chan is getting really old.

bibi24 · Apr 28, 2011

fscric said:
Sigh! This bitching about Chan is getting really old.

LOL there ain't that much this time around in comparison!

kensal · Apr 28, 2011

fscric said:
Sigh! This bitching about Chan is getting really old.

Please, this is nothing. You just wait till Dance event starts. Now there drama guaranteed.

Ilvskating · Apr 28, 2011

Originally Posted by kensal
Kozuka's arm movements perfectly fit the choreography for dance in both SP and LP. And he does express movement and music great. This is practically comparing apples and oranges which again proves how subjective PCS for the most part are. That's why I share some people's opnion that while Chan's win is not questionable, 10 points or even 9.5 points is stretching too far. I would have PCS for Chan and Kozuka in 2 point difference range and I would let the judges to decide who should get 2 points more between those two. Personally for me Kozuka lost by one quad, even though ironically he got higher TES for simply executing those techs much better than Chan.

kensal said:
The logic is that Kozuka won TES by GOEs not by base.

That's where you lost me. What you're complaining? Kozuka got more GOE, and you induce that he should have got 2 point more than Chan in PCS too? What do you mean that Kozuka lost by one quad? I believe Kozuka didn't miss any jump pass. Even he does one more quad, would that necessarily change PCS by 10 points?

Serious Business · Apr 28, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
As per ISU's own publications, they are frequently wrong and clueless about how to run CoP.

I agree, I was just stating what the administrators of the COP explain transitions as. We both disagree with that definition, albeit in different ways.

And what you said about stationary full body movement on the ice, such as Amodio's miming of Michael Jackson dance moves, still demands energy is absolutely true. It even demands training and talent, too. But I do think the scoring in skating should focus on skating-centric movement. I mean, that's the reasoning behind the prohibition on acrobatic rules like the back flip (which still requires more ice interaction than standing still and dancing). I do agree that it shouldn't be completely dismissed as worthless, and that it can add to the performance.

However, I maintain that mouthing the lyrics does not. That's not energy intensive, nor does it require much forethought, training or finesse.

Ilvskating · Apr 28, 2011

I believe Chan and Kozuka are both the happiest person on earth today, why should we be here nitpiking the protocol. I'm not going to do this any more.

There is only one thing I'm unhappy with, the rule about illegal element. It is not reasonable, need a treak.

kensal · Apr 28, 2011

Ilvskating said:
Originally Posted by kensal
Kozuka's arm movements perfectly fit the choreography for dance in both SP and LP. And he does express movement and music great. This is practically comparing apples and oranges which again proves how subjective PCS for the most part are. That's why I share some people's opnion that while Chan's win is not questionable, 10 points or even 9.5 points is stretching too far. I would have PCS for Chan and Kozuka in 2 point difference range and I would let the judges to decide who should get 2 points more between those two. Personally for me Kozuka lost by one quad, even though ironically he got higher TES for simply executing those techs much better than Chan.

That's where you lost me. What you're complaining? Kozuka got more GOE, and you induce that he should have got 2 point more than Chan in PCS too? What do you mean that Kozuka lost by one quad? I believe Kozuka didn't miss any jump pass. Even he does one more quad, would that necessarily change PCS by 10 points?

First of all, I am not compalining. I never said that Kozuka missed any jump passes. I did not compare his TES and PCS.
Secondly, read carefully, transition words are important in English. After I finished my PCS discussion I used full stop and word "Personally" to proceed stating my opinion on why I don't have problem with Kozuka behind Chan. And now I am tired.

Serious Business · Apr 28, 2011

Ilvskating said:
I believe Chan and Kozuka are both the happiest person on earth today, why should we be here nitpiking the protocol.

I think Artur can join that club and be president! His podium finished was very unexpected. There was plenty of talk in Russia about how Russian skating is on track to dominate in Sochi, but too bad about the men's discipline! But then hometown boy makes good, and skates the best he's ever skated in his entire life so far to take bronze. It's the unexpected successes that are the most extravagant to its recipients.

fscric · Apr 28, 2011

Ilvskating said:
I believe Chan and Kozuka are both the happiest person on earth today, .....

Totally. I watched the award ceremony on youtube and it's obvious they are friends with each other, when Kozuka stepped onto the carpet, Chan came forward on his podium to shake hands with Kozuka and they embraced each other; that was a sweet moment.

Morning Glory · Apr 28, 2011

fscric said:
Totally. I watched the award ceremony on youtube and it's obvious they are friends with each other, when Kozuka stepped onto the carpet, Chan came forward on his podium to shake hands with Kozuka and they embraced each other; that was a sweet moment.

Do you have a link?

I remember Taka's talking about Chan. After TEB 2008, where Chan got gold and Taka got silver, Taka and Chan chattered in their hotel room until midnight, then hotel employee came and asked them not to be noisy. Apparently they are friends.

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