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Thread: Men's LP

  1. #856
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensal View Post
    Just curious, would you mind showing your thought process in determining that Chan is more musical than Kozuka?
    :lol: Yep, I'm not saying that Kozuka is better than everything than Patrick, I'm not even saying that Kozuka deserved higher PCS than Patrick, I'm just saying Patrick's not 9 points-i.e 2 falls better. I'm sorry Wally, but Chan shouldn't be given that kind of cushion of someone as good as Kozuka is. Not when both skate well.

    Especially when Kozuka is only given 5 point cushion over Artur.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-28-2011 at 08:39 PM.

  2. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Do we really need to get into it how Patrick can skate through the music a bit. Its not just me Wally saying it, its plenty of people who have said it. Kozuka is more musical.
    I am not interested in other people's hearsay and figure skating is not a popularity contest. I am interested in your thought process, which I don't have to agree with but I want to see your logic and whether it would stand up under scruitny even if I may disagree with it. There is no right or wrong answer in the judging of figure skating. Until you can provide an explanation based on the rules as to why the gap of 9 points was unjustified, I am afraid I have to treat your comment as a statement of personal preference, nothing more.

  3. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensal View Post
    Just curious, would you mind showing your thought process in determining that Chan is more musical than Kozuka?
    Do you mean you are interested to see my thoughts on the IN comparison of these two skaters since being "musical" is not a term I have used?

  4. #859
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILoveFigures View Post
    Chan won by 22 points mainly because of the short program lead. Kozuka was far behind. The scores are NOT ridiculous, and the standings were absolutely fair.
    The standings of the top 3 were fair but he was very unfairly overscored regardless. Patrick Chan's PCS of 91 is an abomination to the art of figure skating. Having amazing skating skills and putting transitions before jumps doesn't mean you have good choreography or are interpreting the music or are giving an emotionally resonant performance. The PCS Chan received is what a mature virtuoso performance such as the one Lambiel gave at 2007 Worlds would deserve. Chan came nowhere near that. He was technically astounding, sure, but that is supposed to be separate from PCS.

    I would also cite Jeremy Abbott at the 2008 GPF as an example of a note-perfect performance that would have deserved such a high PCS. It was far and away superior in its musicality and originality. Chan's transitions were in fact not as difficult as Abbott's either - let's see Chan do a series of reverse direction turns and then stay on that one foot before going immediately into a breathtaking Triple Axel; or multiple full-body dips in both directions before a Triple Loop. You should also look to Matt Savoie for someone who did painstakingly difficult transitions into jumps and would have deserved 9's for that mark.

    The GOE grades were utter nonsense. Chan's first Quad was 1/4 turn short and landed on the inside edge. He received +1.29 points for that effort. His first Triple Lutz was small and a bit jerky on the landing. Several judges gave it +2 GOE. He got a bunch of +3's for his spinning, which I absolutely will not go into the detailing of breaking down how wrong that is. If Patrick Chan's combination spin is worth +3 then Lambiel's combination spin from 2007 Worlds should have received a +6 and been worth higher base value to boot. Oops, but it's capped at +3...hence why GOE shouldn't be handed out like candy. +GOE means the skater went above and beyond the satisfactory execution of the element and a +3 means it was one the best best elements OF ALL TIME.

    I believe that both Kozuka and Gachinski were overscored on the PCS as well, but not as much as Chan. And their tech marks were mostly fair as well (although still a bit too high IMO). Kozuka's performance was one of the most technically perfect in the history of the sport.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 04-28-2011 at 08:46 PM.

  5. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Then there are parts of Kozuka's presentation I find to be outright below par. His movement is very reserved. Most of his movement stays close to the core, even if he extends his arms he keeps them close to the body. And if he's not extending them, the arms just look limp. And with this desire to contract his body, even his flourishes look hesitant, unexpansive. It really detracts from a dancer's ability to fully express movement, emotion and music.
    Kozuka's arm movements perfectly fit the choreography for dance in both SP and LP. And he does express movement and music great. This is practically comparing apples and oranges which again proves how subjective PCS for the most part are. That's why I share some people's opnion that while Chan's win is not questionable, 10 points or even 9.5 points is stretching too far. I would have PCS for Chan and Kozuka in 2 point difference range and I would let the judges to decide who should get 2 points more between those two. Personally for me Kozuka lost by one quad, even though ironically he got higher TES for simply executing those techs much better than Chan.

  6. #861
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Do we really need to get into it how Patrick can skate through the music a bit. Its not just me Wally saying it, its plenty of people who have said it. Kozuka is more musical.
    What do you mean by skating through the music? We must define it very differently because that is one criticism I find hard to fathom about Chan. He skates one of the most transition-filled programs ever, with more skating moves timed to musical phrases and highlights than most skaters ever. Skating through music would imply an empty program, which is very much the opposite of Chan. Skating through the music would be someone who does very little transitions, and just does basic stroking through the music.

    Perhaps you mean his choreography and movement aren't appropriate to the music for your taste? Or he doesn't have enough non-skating movement to the music? I disagree with that, his non-skating movement is about average in amount.

    I mean, someone like Amodio in his current FS, standing there and mouthing the lyrics is totally feeling, reacting and moving to the music. But that is certainly not skating to the music. And it should not be rewarded in the PCS.

  7. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure Kozuka got the second highest PCS ever awarded in figure skating. The people who want it higher do so because they want it to be closer to Chan's, so it is about Chan as always (it's a Chan's world, baby). That is a perfectly fair point to raise, as the PCS are worded as being comparative in some ISU rules and memos. But let's be honest that it isn't about Kozuka alone for people who thinks his PCS should be even higher.

    I disagree. While Kozuka has exceptional basics and skated a very intricate program with unusual command, he's still not on Chan's level in either ice command or the intricacy of the program. Don't get me wrong, they are both in the stratosphere, and unmatched by anyone else in this competition, but it is necessary to compare them for the discussion at hand.

    Then there are parts of Kozuka's presentation I find to be outright below par. His movement is very reserved. Most of his movement stays close to the core, even if he extends his arms he keeps them close to the body. And if he's not extending them, the arms just look limp. And with this desire to contract his body, even his flourishes look hesitant, unexpansive. It really detracts from a dancer's ability to fully express movement, emotion and music.

    Of course, this is just one little con among the many pros of Kozuka's skating, but it's one that affects a few of the PCS criteria, and when we're in the super nitpickery stage of exactly how superhumanly high his PCS should be, it's relevant. Therefore, I'm perfectly fine with him having the second highest PCS ever for his performance here. Truly a horrible shame, but I'm sure he'll recover.
    Wow, serious Business, I really love your post. That was something lacking from Kozuka that I had a feeling but just could not grasp it. I was wondering if it was extention problem but you're spot on. It was the lack of abundance and attack, being to cautious. OK, I'm going to stop. You said it all and it can't be put in a better way

  8. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensal View Post
    Kozuka's arm movements perfectly fit the choreography for dance in both SP and LP. And he does express movement and music great. This is practically comparing apples and oranges which again proves how subjective PCS for the most part are. That's why I share some people's opnion that while Chan's win is not questionable, 10 points or even 9.5 points is stretching too far. I would have PCS for Chan and Kozuka in 2 point difference range and I would let the judges to decide who should get 2 points more between those two. Personally for me Kozuka lost by one quad, even though ironically he got higher TES for simply executing those techs much better than Chan.
    There is nothing ironica here. Kozuka did two 3A and one quad, Chan did two quads and one 3A, but I think Chan did a 2T instead of 3T. That should explain the TES.

  9. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilvskating View Post
    There is nothing ironica here. Kozuka did two 3A and one quad, Chan did two quads and one 3A, but I think Chan did a 2T instead of 3T. That should explain the TES.
    Well, that was my point.

  10. #865
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Skating through the music would be someone who does very little transitions, and just does basic stroking through the music.
    See, this is one of the BIGGEST misnomers in the judging of modern day figure skating. Doing a transition does not mean you are skating to the music. You can skate through the music while doing a transition in exactly the same way as you can by doing basic stroking. If the transition is executed solely because it's a transition, thus an attempt to gain more points, that does not mean the transition had anything to do with the music.

    Basic stroking should not be reviled. Stroking can and should be timed to the music. The way a person strokes across the ice is choreography. That's part of why Michelle Kwan's programs are so masterful - the tempo and positioning of her blades was frequently perfect for the program. I find that the people who call programs "empty" are in fact sometimes just blind to those kinds of nuances.

    The programs these days are adding transitions for little or no choreographic/interpretive purpose at all. The skaters who do this should be gaining on the Transitions mark, sure, but their Choreography and Interpretation components should be going DOWN as a result.

    BTW, I mostly agree with your other post regarding the assessment of Kozuka's performance. His LP this season was a huge step down from his LP's in 2009 and 2010. However, I disagree with what you said about Amodio to a degree. While too much posing can be bad, a lot of the "stationary" movements Amodio performs require full-body dedication that take up energy just like stroking around the rink does. There is certainly a time and a place for stationary movement to be artistically effective. I would argue that Amodio's version of the program at Worlds was not nearly as effective as the earlier versions from the season, though. His movements captured the raw intensity and dynamite quality of the music but after the music changed and the lyrics were added it became total pap.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 04-28-2011 at 09:10 PM.

  11. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensal View Post
    Well, that was my point.
    I really don't understand your logic. Sorry.

  12. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilvskating View Post
    I really don't understand your logic. Sorry.
    The logic is that Kozuka won TES by GOEs not by base.

  13. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    See, this is one the BIGGEST misnomers in the judging of modern day figure skating. Doing a transition does not mean you are skating to the music. You can skate through the music while doing a transition in exactly the same way as you can by doing basic stroking. If the transition is executed solely because it's a transition, thus an attempt to gain more points, that does not mean the transition had anything to do with the music.

    Basic stroking should not be reviled. Stroking can and should be timed to the music. The way a person strokes across the ice is choreography. That's part of why Michelle Kwan's programs are so masterful - the tempo and positioning of her blades was frequently perfect for the program. I find that the people who call programs "empty" are in fact sometimes just blind to those kinds of nuances.

    The programs these days are adding transitions for little or no choreographic/interpretive purpose at all. The skaters who do this should be gaining on the Transitions mark, sure, but their Choreography and Interpretation components should be going DOWN as a result.
    ITA, the term "transitions" became one of those buzzwords.

  14. #869
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    See, this is one the BIGGEST misnomers in the judging of modern day figure skating. Doing a transition does not mean you are skating to the music. You can skate through the music while doing a transition in exactly the same way as you can by doing basic stroking. If the transition is executed solely because it's a transition, thus an attempt to gain more points, that does not mean the transition had anything to do with the music.
    As per the ISU's own publications, you are partially right. Transitions do include movement unrelated to moving on the ice. But the ISU program components explanation does stress that crosscuts should be minimized:

    Transitions can be short or long, including the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the music. (Minimum use of cross-cuts)
    That would cut out Kwan in her later years and someone like Plushenko.

  15. #870
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    As per ISU's own publications, they are frequently wrong and clueless about how to run CoP.

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