Men's LP

[SkateFiguring]

Back in 2002 SLC Olympics China had 3 spots for men (how they got 3 was beyond me....), Anthony Liu became a Australian citizen to represent them instead of always getting bunched up with everyone else on team China.

Well, that was when Men skating was all about jumps. China is over due for an all round Men skater. After all, their Ladies pioneer was just about the most artistic skater there has even been. And their best Pairs have developed great artistry after debuting as technically focused.

[seniorita]

Seriously and as much as I like him and I sympathize him and his lack of maths, Oda has skated to too many worlds and the result is the same, he is very talented and skates very well but it is amazing how many times he has missed a medal, obviously repetition doesnt help him. if I was JF I would send Hanyu from now on to warm up for Sochi, he has proven to be a very good competitor with nerves and concetration, given that I dont want neither Dai or Kozuka to stay home I d choose Oda.It is unfair I know but it is more unfair to keep down Hanyu (ok I m un uber).

[janetfan]

Seriously and as much as I like him and I sympathize him and his lack of maths, Oda has skated to too many worlds and the result is the same, he is very talented and skates very well but it is amazing how many times he has missed a medal, obviously repetition doesnt help him. if I was JF I would send Hanyu from now on to warm up for Sochi, he has proven to be a very good competitor with nerves and concetration, given that I dont want neither Dai or Kozuka to stay home I d choose Oda.It is unfair I know but it is more unfair to keep down Hanyu (ok I m un uber).

Yes, this is what skating needs. More politics and less competition.

While we are at it, why not tie Oda to a stake and give him 20 lashes.

That would sure be good for skating too.

[seniorita]

^ehh?
I was kind of replying to Joe, the japanese spots are not enough for the top skaters they have, where did I suggest a politiking.

[let`s talk]

The standings of the top 3 were fair but he was very unfairly overscored regardless. Patrick Chan's PCS of 91 is an abomination to the art of figure skating. Having amazing skating skills and putting transitions before jumps doesn't mean you have good choreography or are interpreting the music or are giving an emotionally resonant performance. The PCS Chan received is what a mature virtuoso performance such as the one Lambiel gave at 2007 Worlds would deserve. Chan came nowhere near that. He was technically astounding, sure, but that is supposed to be separate from PCS.

I would also cite Jeremy Abbott at the 2008 GPF as an example of a note-perfect performance that would have deserved such a high PCS. It was far and away superior in its musicality and originality. Chan's transitions were in fact not as difficult as Abbott's either - let's see Chan do a series of reverse direction turns and then stay on that one foot before going immediately into a breathtaking Triple Axel; or multiple full-body dips in both directions before a Triple Loop. You should also look to Matt Savoie for someone who did painstakingly difficult transitions into jumps and would have deserved 9's for that mark.

The GOE grades were utter nonsense. Chan's first Quad was 1/4 turn short and landed on the inside edge. He received +1.29 points for that effort. His first Triple Lutz was small and a bit jerky on the landing. Several judges gave it +2 GOE. He got a bunch of +3's for his spinning, which I absolutely will not go into the detailing of breaking down how wrong that is. If Patrick Chan's combination spin is worth +3 then Lambiel's combination spin from 2007 Worlds should have received a +6 and been worth higher base value to boot. Oops, but it's capped at +3...hence why GOE shouldn't be handed out like candy. +GOE means the skater went above and beyond the satisfactory execution of the element and a +3 means it was one the best best elements OF ALL TIME.

I believe that both Kozuka and Gachinski were overscored on the PCS as well, but not as much as Chan. And their tech marks were mostly fair as well (although still a bit too high IMO). Kozuka's performance was one of the most technically perfect in the history of the sport.

Two "10" for interpretation (of the Phantom who is not there) is the most hillarious pont, IMO.

The real question is still the same: why is this happening?

[Bluebonnet]

Two "10" for interpretation (of the Phantom who is not there) is the most hillarious pont, IMO.

The real question is still the same: why is this happening?

Because your interpretation is different from the international judges.

Seriously and as much as I like him and I sympathize him and his lack of maths, Oda has skated to too many worlds and the result is the same, he is very talented and skates very well but it is amazing how many times he has missed a medal, obviously repetition doesnt help him. if I was JF I would send Hanyu from now on to warm up for Sochi, he has proven to be a very good competitor with nerves and concetration, given that I dont want neither Dai or Kozuka to stay home I d choose Oda.It is unfair I know but it is more unfair to keep down Hanyu (ok I m un uber).

All four Japanese men are very very good. Any of them stays at home are sad thing. So let them compete for the three spot.

On another note, if ISU doesn't change zayak rule, Oda may make same mistake again. Now we know that he's learned nothing from his mistakes.

[let`s talk]

Because your interpretation is different from the international judges.

Indeed. Their use of GOE and PCS is a total mess. Not that I said something new here.

[Mathman]

Oda's mistake in the long program exposes a huge fault in the IJS Zayak rules for combinations.

Oda's first two passes were 4T+3T and 3A+3T. Those were his monster point-grabbers. If he couldn't pull off the quad, OK, he scaled back to triple-triple and salvaged as much as he could. So far so good.

But now because he made a mistake on element #1, he is prohibited from doing element #2. I do not see any sense in that. The rules should be modified so that once an element is over, for good or ill, that's that and you are allowed to go on with your program.

At the very least he should get credit for the triple Axel.

Think about it. You mess up your quad toe, so they take away your triple Axel, too?

[Ilvskating]

Chinese men used to be very strong in jumps, multiple quads. I remember Hongbo said that one of the Chinese single skaters did a second quad in the middle of his program and the judges even didn't pay attention to. So the next time the skater extended four fingers to the judges before doing his quad. It was so hilarious.

[SkateFiguring]

Chinese men used to be very strong in jumps, multiple quads. I remember Hongbo said that one of the Chinese single skaters did a second quad in the middle of his program and the judges even didn't pay attention to. So the next time the skater extended four fingers to the judges before doing his quad. It was so hilarious.

Quads must be so easy for him, no big deal at all. Not only could he do it in the middle of the program, he even had the mind to alert the judges instead of focusing on skating down the length of the rink! Maybe he should have pointed his index and middle fingers at his own eyes while directly facing the judges!

Do you have his name?

[Mathman]

Do you have his name?

I don't know if this is the skater than Ilvskating is referring to, but it would certainly apply to two-time Olympian Li Chengjiang. He threw off multiple quads and could do both a quad toe and a quad Salchow easy as pie.

Unfortunately he had a stiff presentation (Goebel was more flexible ) which was poorly received, especially by European and Russian judges.

[Joesitz]

All four Japanese men are very very good. Any of them stays at home are sad thing. So let them compete for the three spot.

One competition like a Nationals does not produce the best skater in a competition. It does produce a podium of a hometown competition. JMO.

I don't know if this is the skater than Ilvskating is referring to, but it would certainly apply to two-time Olympian Li Chengjiang. He threw off multiple quads and could do both a quad toe and a quad Salchow easy as pie.
Unfortunately he had a stiff presentation (Goebel was more flexible ) which was poorly received, especially by European and Russian judges.

Chengjiang was improving his presentation towrds the end of his career but his jumps became faulty as I remember. Goebel had a real good skate in Worlds 2003. Your comments on the European judges are interesting. Figure Skating is a European Sport, and perhaps they want to keep the winners in Europe. How many European judges and tech panelists are, in general, part of a given competition?

[Mathman]

^ Here is a document where you can look up the countries of the judges at worlds, four continents, etc.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=2152

For instance, for worlds it was:

Men: Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, Great Britain, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey, and USA

For ladies: Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Italy, Lithuania, Russia, Slovakia, Spain, Switzerland, and Uzbekistan

There are, of course, not many national federations outside of Europe to choose from.

In Li's case, I don't think it was anything against him personally or against Chinese skaters. The judges just liked the smooth, fluid style of skaters like Yagudin, Klimkin and Abt better.

[Bluebonnet]

Indeed. Their use of GOE and PCS is a total mess. Not that I said something new here.

If you're refering to Patrick Chan's Phantom of the Opera, which I think you are, I don't agree with you. Interpretation doesn't have to follow the original story line. Why can't a skater interpret the music itself and comes up with his own understanding of it?

[let`s talk]

Why can't a skater interpret the music itself and comes up with his own understanding of it?

That can be said about any skater and any program. If it's the case, we wouldn't need the interpretation score in the first place. No, it doesn't work this way.