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Thread: Ladies - Short Program

  1. #646
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    I am sorry for my ignorance, but maybe you can enlighten me further. Where in the rules does it say that a solo jump without entry transition automatically deserves -3 GOE?
    In communication 1611 (clicking on that will likely make you download a PDF file), under section IV, under the table "errors for which the GOE must be in the minuses", it says SP: SP: No required steps/movements preceding jump, -3. Elsewhere in the rulebook, defining step sequences, a mohawk is listed as a step.

    We can also refer to the ISU Special Regulations and Rules for Single, Pairs and Ice Dancing (clicking on that will make you download a huge PDF file at painfully slow speeds). Under the requirements for the senior ladies short program, it says:
    Triple jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements
    It would seem even steps aren't required, some sort of "comparable" movement will do. I am not finding further clarification on the ISU site. But based on what I've read, it would be a real stretch to say that Yuna's steps and movements immediately preceding the 3lutz don't fulfill the steps/movement requirement. They may not fulfill the bullet point for +GOE given to a "unexpected / creative / difficult entry" before a jump, but that doesn't mean they deserve -3 either. So unless the ISU rules have been modified by a memo that I didn't find (entirely possible), I think the mostly -2's (which translates to a -1.5 in the actual score) for Yuna's 3lutz was not unreasonable.
    Last edited by Serious Business; 04-29-2011 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #647
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Here is Yuna's SP.
    Watching her long entry into the intended opening combo jump I am not sure if I see any steps, turns or TR.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieS_4ct5vQM

    Aside from that I thought Yuna was still pretty impressive today considering she has not competed in over a year.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-29-2011 at 02:11 PM.

  3. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    In communication 1611 (clicking on that will likely make you download a PDF file), under section IV, under the table "errors for which the GOE must be in the minuses", it says SP: SP: No required steps/movements preceding jump, -3. Elsewhere in the rulebook, defining step sequences, a mohawk is listed as a step.

    We can also refer to the ISU Special Regulations and Rules for Single, Pairs and Ice Dancing (clicking on that will make you download a huge PDF file at painfully slow speeds). Under the requirements for the senior short program, it says:

    It would seem even steps aren't required, some sort of "comparable" movement will do. I am not finding further clarification on the ISU site. But based on what I've read, it would be a real stretch to say that Yuna's steps and movements immediately preceding the 3lutz don't fulfill the steps/movement requirement. They may not fulfill the bullet point for +GOE given to a "unexpected / creative / difficult entry" before a jump, but that doesn't mean they deserve -3 either. So unless the ISU rules have been modified by a memo that I didn't find (entirely possible), I think the mostly -2's (which translates to a -1.5 in the actual score) for Yuna's 3lutz was not unreasonable.
    Just my curiousity, does this mean in your understanding, any movement can be used an an requirement step except the moves that are specifily written by ISU?

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    In communication 1611 (clicking on that will likely make you download a PDF file), under section IV, under the table "errors for which the GOE must be in the minuses", it says SP: SP: No required steps/movements preceding jump, -3. Elsewhere in the rulebook, defining step sequences, a mohawk is listed as a step.

    We can also refer to the ISU Special Regulations and Rules for Single, Pairs and Ice Dancing (clicking on that will make you download a huge PDF file at painfully slow speeds). Under the requirements for the senior ladies short program, it says:

    It would seem even steps aren't required, some sort of "comparable" movement will do. I am not finding further clarification on the ISU site. But based on what I've read, it would be a real stretch to say that Yuna's steps and movements immediately preceding the 3lutz don't fulfill the steps/movement requirement. They may not fulfill the bullet point for +GOE given to a "unexpected / creative / difficult entry" before a jump, but that doesn't mean they deserve -3 either. So unless the ISU rules have been modified by a memo that I didn't find (entirely possible), I think the mostly -2's (which translates to a -1.5 in the actual score) for Yuna's 3lutz was not unreasonable.
    Sorry but Yu-Na didn't do a mohawk before her lutz. It was a long entry without any steps/turns. The only "movement" she did was "crossing" her legs right before going into an outside edge but I'm not sure if it counts as "skating movement".

  5. #650
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeloving View Post
    Just my curiousity, does this mean in your understanding, any movement can be used an an requirement step except the moves that are specifily written by ISU?
    I don't know what's deemed ineligible to fulfill the steps/movement requirement before a jump. I just read a whole pile of ISU communications and found nothing relevant there. I would presume that no movement at all, like a long held gliding edge should trigger the penalty.

    And on rewatching Yuna's SP, she doesn't do a mohawk, she just changed the feet on the ice by crossing and uncrossing them after a few edge changes right before the 3lutz without changing the direction she's facing. It's not particularly intricate, but it certainly isn't a long held edge or stroking right before the jump. If those ISU rules I read stand as they are, I don't see why they wouldn't qualify as steps/movement immediately preceding the triple jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Sorry but Yu-Na didn't do a mohawk before her lutz. It was a long entry without any steps/turns. The only "movement" she did was "crossing" her legs right before going into an outside edge but I'm not sure if it counts as "skating movement".
    You're right, I remembered it wrong. I rewatched that bit even as you posted.
    Last edited by Serious Business; 04-29-2011 at 02:25 PM.

  6. #651
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Hi Serious Business, I have a question.. who is your Avatar? Is that a famous skater? I been curious!

  7. #652
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    Hi Serious Business, I have a question.. who is your Avatar? Is that a famous skater? I been curious!
    It's Madison Chock performing the Cabaret program isn't it?

  8. #653
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    To clarify, here's what Yuna did after stroking (I hope I didn't get anything else wrong!): first she glides on her right outside edge, then she does a cross chassé to get on her left inside edge, then she does a curve with a change of edge to get on her left outside edge and immediately picks in for the 3lutz. Both the chassé and a curve with a change of edge are listed as steps in in communication 1611. So I think Yuna should be safe for that requirement.

    Edited to add: they're specifically listed as steps for all purposes in figure skating judging under rule 604 Special Regulations and Technical rulebook for judging skating. And it turns out "movement" refers to thinks like a spread eagle or a lunge.

    So now I'm very sure Yuna didn't deserve an extra -.6 off on her 3lutz step out. :P

    ks777, it is Madison Chock and her very expressive and beautiful face. Tinymavy15 got it exactly right. It's from her Cabaret FD from US nationals.
    Last edited by Serious Business; 04-29-2011 at 03:00 PM.

  9. #654
    Down With It
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    Hi Serious Business, I have a question.. who is your Avatar? Is that a famous skater? I been curious!
    same here.

  10. #655
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    Due to me being a huge Royalist, my attention today has been obviously elsewhere and I'm not apologizing for it. Been waiting for this day ever since things started getting serious between William and Catherine and the day did not disappoint.

    Got to see the SD's on Bold, but missed the Ladies SP's. Watching the packaged piece on the Main CBC Network and our neighbour popped in as Cynthia was being interviewed by Brenda Irving and...

    Did I hear Cynthia right? She's decided to call it a career on the Amateur Scene after tomorrow?

    I was just heading out of my room when that took place, so am wondering if I heard right.

    Sooooo happy for Alissa and Miki!!!

    Haven't seen Yu Na yet, but that's about to happen. I'm worried about Mao. I can't remember ever seeing her looking so unhealthy before. Scary that is.

  11. #656
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    LOL ok thanks!!

  12. #657
    Long live the Queen! YunaBliss's Avatar
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    OK, I read the rules very carefully. And it seems to me that this case was "stepping out of landing in a jump" which suggest -2 or -3 negative GOE, with the requirement that no matter the positive GOE, the net final GOE must be negative.

    The only errors that MUST result in the net final GOE being -3 are the first two errors stated in the chart - i.e. one or more less revolution than required or combo constituting only one jump in SP (which doesn't apply to Yuna because she adjusted to do 3F-2T)

    The third item on the list, "no required steps/movement preceding jump", I think, applies only if the skater doesn't perform the planned steps/movements before executing a planned solo jump (otherwise, according BoP's argument, Yuna would have gotten negative GOE even if she perfectly executed 3Lz-3T), and even then, it just requires the final net GOE to be negative, rather than being -3. (Hence, the difference between writing "GOE-3" for the first two errors mentioned above, and just writing "-3" for this error).

    Is this wrong? The rules are far from being clearly written, so I am definitely interested in listening to others' opinion.
    Last edited by YunaBliss; 04-29-2011 at 02:57 PM.

  13. #658
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    YunaBliss, read my previous post for my assessment on this.

  14. #659
    Custom Title MikiAndoFan#1's Avatar
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    I'm so happy for Miki, Yu-Na, Alissa and Ksenia! They were great, but too bad Yu-Na stepped out of her 3Lz. I'm worried about Mao, I hope she brings it tomorrow. And Carolina, too.

  15. #660
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I'm confused about the posts being so happy. I am far from being overwhelmed by the nothing-new Ladies event. They skated in their usual manner

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