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Thread: Ladies - Short Program

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    So now I'm very sure Yuna didn't deserve an extra -.6 off on her 3lutz step out. :P
    Serious Business, I really appreciate you taking a closer look at this and giving us this analysis. Personally, I wouldn't have minded it if Yu-Na had gotten the extra -.6 off if it would've made everyone happy.

    This sort of reminds me of how Miki won the SP at the 2009 GPF, where Yu-Na popped her flip and got a downgrade that generated a great deal of discussion. Interestingly enough, had Yu-Na not gotten that much-discussed downgrade, she would've been ahead of a visibly clean Miki even though Yu-Na had a visible mistake, which is what happened here.

    I don't think the very narrow point difference she has here is significant. It's really whoever wins the LP, it's theirs, as it should be.

    Good luck to the ladies tomorrow. This really feels like the weirdest world's ever....

  2. #662
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I'm confused about the posts being so happy. I am far from being overwhelmed by the nothing-new Ladies event. They skated in their usual manner


    Alissa did good keeping herself in contention but I thought she looked tentative out there. And I am a big Alissa fan.

    I don't know what to say about Mao because I find her a glorius and precious skater.
    But I felt uneasy watching her today.

    Let's be fair to Yuna. She was not perfect (yeah, she is human) but still skated with a degree of fire, emotion and mastery of skating skills the others lacked.

    I love Miki the young lady, but she has not always been my favorite skater. I thought she did good today. I like to see a poised skater executing well and Miki seemed to do that.

    Can't wait for tomorrow!!

    PS - as to the "Royals" I did watch that while the first two groups were skating.

    As pageantry goes nothing can top Prince William and beautiful Princess Kate.

    The first two groups today were nothing more than ISU's version of pageantry as we saw too many EURO skaters who did not deserve to be competing in the world championship ahead of skaters like Akiko and Mirai. It is so silly and dumb it makes me sad.

  3. #663
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    jaylee, you are very right about how little a .6 difference matters at this level of competition in the ranking. I mostly just take this as an excuse to read up on and discuss ISU rules so I can know them better myself.

    This is actually a pretty close competition. The entire top 10 has a range of 11.04 in scores. The top 4 only have a gulf of 4.43.

    Still, Yuna has to be the overwhelming favorite. Her jumps look as impressive as ever, and it's not as if she lost the 3lutz/3toe (she landed them in practice, and she landed one during the warmup to the SP).

  4. #664
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Serious Business, I think you're swell, but you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to the topic. This rule has been a rule in the Short Program for DECADES. Yu-Na absolutely did not have any viable transition before her 3Lutz. She did basic stroking movements (back crossovers) that are seen at some point before almost any jump. After all, physics dictates that you have to move your feet to get across the ice. Lifting your free foot and curving from the inside edge to the outside edge is not a transition. That's a standard entrance into the Lutz. An actual transition would be difficult turn/step, or a series of turns/steps, or some kind of other move that requires extra skill to maintain positioning (such as a Spiral or Spread Eagle).

    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    The third item on the list, "no required steps/movement preceding jump", I think, applies only if the skater doesn't perform the planned steps/movements before executing a planned solo jump (otherwise, according BoP's argument, Yuna would have gotten negative GOE even if she perfectly executed 3Lz-3T)
    If Yu-Na had perfectly executed a 3Lz-3T then that wouldn't have been her solo jump. It would have been her combination. Seeing as Yu-Na screwed up her Lutz, she then had to turn her planned solo jump, the Flip, into her combination jump.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Serious Business, I think you're swell, but you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to the topic. This rule has been a rule in the Short Program for DECADES. Yu-Na absolutely did not have any viable transition before her 3Lutz. She did basic stroking movements (back crossovers) that are seen at some point before almost any jump. After all, physics dictates that you have to move your feet to get across the ice. Lifting your free foot and curving from the inside edge to the outside edge is not a transition. That's a standard entrance into the Lutz. An actual transition would be difficult turn/step, or a series of turns/steps, or some kind of other move that requires extra skill to maintain positioning (such as a Spiral or Spread Eagle).



    .
    Thanks for your thoughts on that BOP. It seems to me that you are right about this and it just goes to show ISU judges are not only human but not really as well versed/qualified in the CoP as some fans believe.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post

    I don't think the very narrow point difference she has here is significant. It's really whoever wins the LP, it's theirs, as it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    jaylee, you are very right about how little a .6 difference matters at this level of competition in the ranking.

    I beg to disagree. This is an absolute system where the highest score wins, whatever the difference is, so every tenth of a point counts. If these were the final scores of the competition (noboby can predict the difference between the final scores at this point) the 0.33 points that separate Yu-Na and Miki's scores would be the difference between gold and silver.

  7. #667
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Blades of Passion, Yuna stopped doing back crossovers a full 3 seconds before the jump. Then she did a series of simple steps, but steps nonetheless.

    But even besides Yuna in this particular instance, there are plenty of skaters who don't get the -3 deduction on their solo jump despite preceding their solo jumps with less than what Yuna did here, never mind what you deem difficult turns/steps or spirals (in fact I don't think I have ever seen a -3 deduction for lack of steps before a solo SP jump and not for other mistakes). The question in this and all other cases is whether those judges are acting according to the rules. And the rules as the ISU laid down and that I blearily read over, clearly define even easy steps as steps nonetheless, applicable to all areas of judging. So yeah, those judges are acting according to the rules as they are written and published.

    You and many others throughout the years have demanded that judges look for more difficult transitions immediately before the solo jump. But the ISU and most judging through the years don't seem to be moving in that direction. In fact, with this season's allowance of the quad as the solo jump in men's SP, the ISU may have gone even further. I can't think of any time when a skater has gone right into a quad out of even a simple step, never mind a complex series of turns/movements. I think at this current point with the ISU decision makers, they really aren't demanding anything too special before the solo jump. If they change their minds and start scrutinizing the steps/movement before the solo jump, I hope they issue a communication clearly outlining it so all skaters have fair warning.

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    I think this is the best that Miki has skated in terms of speed and emotion in like I don't know when. It can be argued that she deserves to be in 1st but I don't have a problem with Yu na being first.

    This really feels like the weirdest world's ever....
    I thought it was just me.
    Last edited by lavender; 04-29-2011 at 04:48 PM.

  9. #669
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puchi View Post
    I beg to disagree. This is an absolute system where the highest score wins, whatever the difference is, so every tenth of a point counts. If these were the final scores of the competition (noboby can predict the difference between the final scores at this point) the 0.33 points that separate Yu-Na and Miki's scores would be the difference between gold and silver.
    You are right. That's why I said "little difference" rather than "no difference". It is entirely possible that the Yuna's final ranking would be just .6 over the next skater, which would make this deduction relevant. It's just unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I think this is the best that Miki has skated in terms of speed and emotion in like I don't know when. It can be argued that she deserves to be in 1st but I don't have a problem with Yu na being first.
    If you enjoyed that, do check out Miki's SP at Japanese nationals and 4cc from this year if you haven't already. They were also great!

  10. #670
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Blades of Passion, Yuna stopped doing back crossovers a full 3 seconds before the jump. Then she did a series of simple steps, but steps nonetheless.
    Those were NOT steps, they were backward gliding / minor pushes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I think at this current point with the ISU decision makers, they really aren't demanding anything too special before the solo jump. If they change their minds and start scrutinizing the steps/movement before the solo jump, I hope they issue a communication clearly outlining it so all skaters have fair warning.
    They DO have a communication clearly outlining it. Go to the bottom of Communication #1611 and read the section entitled "Remarks". This is specifically what it says:

    3. The S&PTC would like to remind the Judges that if prior to the element of Singles Short Program “jump immediately proceeded by connecting steps and/or by other comparable Free Skating movements” there are no steps and movements or there is break between steps/movements and the jump, the GOE must be reduced according to the Guidelines.

  11. #671
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ But still, I think Serious Business' lament is well founded -- that the judges rarely impose this deduction. I hardly ever see anything out of the ordinary in terms of approaching steps and moves in the field leading up to the solo jump.

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    I bet Mirai is kicking herself for her lackluster Nationals because she could have very well led after the SP here. Heck she was leading last year after the SP when the skating was better. Her LP AT 4CC's would have won a a medal here most likely. It's all there if she wants it.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ But still, I think Serious Business' lament is well founded -- that the judges rarely impose this deduction. I hardly ever see anything out of the ordinary in terms of approaching steps and moves in the field leading up to the solo jump.
    Which is why there was this memo or communication sometimes last year, my memory escapes me, telling judges to crack down on the lack of connecting steps prior to the solo jump. I don't recall where I placed that thing or where exactly I saw it.

    Also, re: penalty on step out, it almost never is more than -2 on its own because unless the skater falls or commit more than one type of error for the given element, there are usually other positive factors to lessen the impact of the error, e.g. good height / distance. Notice for the exact same type of error, Patrick Chan's Triple Axel got mostly -1 and -2 but not a single -3. Yet, Yu Na got, I believe 4 or 5 -3, precisely because it lacked the required connecting steps. Also when skaters switch their jump combo with their solo jumps in the SP, judges also tend to retroactively assume that the new solo jump was done without the required steps, therefore, apply an additional penalty on top of whatever error that was committed. Usually, this is not an issue because one of the most common error to produce this kind of situation is a fall, hence the question of whether it was preceded by steps become rather moot. In this case however, Yu-Na did not fulfill the connecting steps requirement in the sense of the standard's expectation at this level, hence, the right thing to do for judges was to assess an additional penalty on that basis, in addition to the step out.

  14. #674
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    Performances weren't as fantastic as I had hoped. Miki deserved first IMO. Yuna's program wasn't too exciting unfortunately. Even if she had skated a perfect short, I felt it was nice and that is it. In fact, I didn't really notice the mistakes because I felt it was underwhelming. You can still feel she is technically there but the artistry wasn't as... polished? I feel sorry for Mao. She's clearly trying to redefine herself as a skater and its been rough to watch. All the Japanese skaters I really applaud for coming out there and performing despite the distractions and shock they must have felt at home (not that this should affect the scores but still I appreciate that).

    On the other hand, I am excited an American is at 4 and the top scores are so close. Seeing scores back in the 60s is due to the new system I am guessing. I'd like an American on the podium at Sochi (since only figure skating peeps watch the regular season and everyone and their grandmother watches the Olympics). I've felt like figure skating in the US has sort of dried up and despite the better financial support and investment, has not produced the powerhouses (yes, I know people keep pointing out the...erm, less developed Asian body figure as a reason... to be blunt, but I don't think its just that).

    Anyways, we'll find out how everyone does on the long. I don't think Yuna will win gold. She's already barely ahead of Miki and her Long Program is really less about the score and more about Korea. I predict more tension than before, and that it will affect her. Yes, I know she's OGM but that was with a season to get comfortable. When receiving her scores for her short, I was surprised to see Yuna lean back and show apprehension so openly. I think she may be more sensitive to the pressure this time around (much less than the Olympics that's for sure) but still, would be a first to come back and win Gold without participating in the season. Everyone says well its Yuna, but I didn't see the Hamilton dubbed "Seabiscuit" here. I think the other skaters smell blood (skating is bloodthirsty ) and they should perform with more enthusiasm. Its been a while since they've smelled gold and they will come out with emotion and place a strong performance.
    Last edited by MrBerkeley; 04-29-2011 at 07:05 PM.

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    As usual, I'm in awe of BOP's erudition on all things COP. I'm a neophyte WRT to the rules of COP, I only know what skating I like and what I don't. So far the women's SP event was a bit of a letdown for me. I'm hoping the LP event will be much more exciting. The American and Japanese women are struggling (except for Alissa and Miki who seemed pretty controlled) and Yuna is still trying to get her footing back in the competitive arena. I hope that tomorrow finds all the women skaters a bit more calm and focused for their LPs.
    Last edited by jatale; 04-29-2011 at 07:23 PM.

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