Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds?

lavender · Apr 29, 2011

I think the scoring at Nationals was so far off that if they actually score things right then perhaps it would have been a different result.

I personally think Ryan's national long program was bad. It was sloppy. I think the scores that they gave Ryan gave him the idea that he would actually be competitive and medal.

Bluebonnet · Apr 29, 2011

wallylutz said:
Put it this way, if Russia had followed the same way that USFS decides who gets to send to the World Championship, Gachinsky would not have his chance to go since he didn't win Russian Nationals and Russia had only one spot for 2011 Worlds.

The reason why Gachinsky was sent at the end was due to superior results at the Europeans. Given that Abbott actually medaled at the 4CC, equivalent of the Europeans, and placed better than Kozuka who is now the World Silver Medalist, it's conceivable that Abbott could have much better results than the 1 man and 2 boys team that USFS sent.

Sending Dornbush was not in question, it was the decision to send Ross Miner over Abbott that was hotly contested. Given that Dornbush finished 9th, it was conceivable that should Abbott ended up in the final group, the U.S. certainly could have a much better chance of getting the magic number 13.

SkateFiguring said:
:thumbsup: to Wally's analysis.

What would Bradley have placed at the Nationals if the Tech Panel were strict as at Worlds, which they should be since the Nationals was the QR for Worlds? Then maybe the US would have sent the right team.

To be prestigeous and fit as the qualification for Worlds, US Nationals need to adopt the Worlds standard in judging. When there is a big discrepancy between international and national results, something is not all right and it does not bode well for optimal results at Worlds.

:thumbsup: I totally agree with Wally and SkateFiguring's above posts!

attyfan said:
I think another problem is determining who to cut. Ryan's SP at Nats was one of the best skates of his life; IMO, he deserved the Nat title. Therefore, under the existing rules, he would not have been the one cut. Usually, the bronze medalist would be cut, but I think it would be unfair to "punish" Ross Miner for bringing it on in the Nats FS to win bronze by ending his season prematurely -- which would have happened if he wasn't sent to Sr Worlds since he was age ineligible for Jr Worlds. IMO, both Ross and Ricky did well for themselves ... and getting two promising young skaters with the mental toughness will stand the US well. I also am not so sure that Adam or Jeremy would have done any better.

I think if they really followed the international standard, Bradley wouldn't have been a National champion. Dornbush would. The champion could automatically go to the Worlds. The rest could be decided by the skater's season performances with other considerations. Therefore, the Worlds team might have been Dornbush, Abbott, and Bradley.

I truly believe that if Abbott were there at the Worlds this time, he could finish higher than any of these three.

Mrs. P said:
As Mathman and others note earlier, perhaps optimal results at Worlds is not the priority of USFS.

What is the priority of USFS?

Serious Business said:
It's a very human reaction to want to change the rules in response to a recent disaster (not that losing 1 spot is that much of a disaster). For many upon many years, the US was the only federation that consistently scored 3 spots for men at Worlds. The system worked great all those times, I don't think it's wise to chuck it out one time it didn't.

You can only say that the existing system works sometimes, but not other times.

However, I don't think US could change the existing rules. Too many "mother-in-laws" here.

CARA · Apr 30, 2011

It's interesting in that the question of the selection process only comes up when things don't go well.

Currently I hear no one complaining about the Ice Dance team selection process, i.e., who cares when things are going good!

;

I also don't hear posters complaining about the US pair team selection process, i.e., who cares when we know we are unlikely to win :scowl:;

On the other hand, ladies and male skating, i.e., help! We need to recapture the old glory. Do something, anything!

Remedy for the single skating team situatioin - Win!, and we shall extricate ourselves from the selection process question - until, of course, things go south, again.

Just a thought, I'm just sayin'.

Violet Bliss · Apr 30, 2011

^^Well you are right but it's a bit more IMO. Two other factors make the selection for US Mens and Ladies selection controversal: the depth and the inconsistencies of the talents. IOW, too many choices with no clear winning picks.

CARA · Apr 30, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
^^Well you are right but it's a bit more IMO. Two other factors make the selection for US Mens and Ladies selection controversal: the depth and the inconsistencies of the talents. IOW, too many choices with no clear winning picks.

I agree. No clear reliable winner(s) make it harder to designate US representatives. On the other hand, we might simply be in a transitional phase and clear winners may emerge for the next three years.

It may make better sense simply to wait; to seriously reconsider the selection process if we have a disastrous Sochi outing.

Bluebonnet · Apr 30, 2011

CARA said:
It's interesting in that the question of the selection process only comes up when things don't go well.

Currently I hear no one complaining about the Ice Dance team selection process, i.e., who cares when things are going good! ;

I also don't hear posters complaining about the US pair team selection process, i.e., who cares when we know we are unlikely to win :scowl:;

To me, it's who cares about the ice dance (well, except Davis/White)! Who cares about the pairs!

CARA · Apr 30, 2011

Bluebonnet said:
To me, it's who cares about the ice dance (well, except Davis/White)! Who cares about the pairs!

Mathman · Apr 30, 2011

Bluebonnet said:
What is the priority of USFS?

I believe that the priority of the USFSA is to serve the needs of its 176,000 members. Ninety-nine per cent of these member are involved in local club activities, learn-to-skate programs, adult recreational activities, and the like.

If you go to the USFSA site and click on "about us," the mission statement is pretty clear on that point.

U.S. Figure Skating is the national governing body for the sport of figure skating in the United States. U.S. Figure Skating is a member of the International Skating Union (ISU), the international federation for figure skating, and is a member of the U.S. Olympic Committee (USOC).

U.S. Figure Skating is composed of member clubs, collegiate clubs, school-affiliated clubs, individual members, Friends of Figure Skating and Basic Skills programs. It is one of the strongest and largest governing bodies within the winter Olympic movement, with more than 176,000 members in member clubs, collegiate clubs, school-affiliated clubs and Basic Skills programs.

The charter member clubs numbered seven in 1921 when the association was formed and first became a member of the ISU. To date, U.S. Figure Skating has almost 750 member clubs.

The U.S. Figure Skating Basic Skills Program was created in 1968 to serve the needs of both the recreational and competitive skater. Since its inception, the program has taught more than 1.5 million people how to skate. During the 2009-10 season, Basic Skills welcomed 44 new skating schools, bringing the number of active programs throughout the country to 990.

U.S. Figure Skating's national headquarters---located in Colorado Springs, Colo.--is also home to the World Figure Skating Museum & Hall of Fame, which is toured by more than 5,000 visitors annually.

More than 1,000 volunteers serve on U.S. Figure Skating's Board of Directors and numerous committees. Thousands of other volunteers dedicate their time to club activities, judging, officiating and competition management.

That is what United States Figure Skating is all about (Charlie Brown

)

All but a tiny handful of these 167,000 will never have any contact with ISU championships, except as a dream for children in the competitive track. That is why I hold the opinion that fairness in the selection process trumps all -- every young competitive skater deserves his or her fair shot at this exciting adventure. To me, that is more important than national gloating over how many medals we have won.

museksk8r · Apr 30, 2011

The points totals from Nationals between Miner and Abbott were SO CLOSE that the USFSA should have had both guys compete at 4CC and selected the 3rd representative that way. They were virtually tied in the final points. I do believe that the USFSA should have adopted a European manner of selecting the team in this special case.

I'm still

that Bradley thought going in that he had a shot at winning a medal at Worlds. Everything about his basic skating needs a complete overhaul before that will ever happen. He seemed so stunned by his marks in the kiss & cry as if he couldn't believe the marks he was receiving. The international judges have always rightly scored him low. He has always lacked speed and his skating has always been muscled and labored. That justifiably does not translate into high PCS marks. He was seriously overmarked at Nationals and it still really bugs me that he got full credit for his quads in the LP.

I find Miner so bland and boring, even more so than Todd Eldredge. He needs to make people take more notice of his skating because I find that he lacks impact and spark and is completely forgettable.

Dornbush is going to be interesting to see develop I think. I really liked how he talked in his interviews that he was going to be analyzing his performance, critiquing everything, and applying everything he learned at Worlds to make his skating better. I liked his energy at Worlds; he needs to clean up his overall style, hold his movements out longer, and work on being more smooth and polished.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2011

Serious Business said:
It's a very human reaction to want to change the rules in response to a recent disaster (not that losing 1 spot is that much of a disaster). For many upon many years, the US was the only federation that consistently scored 3 spots for men at Worlds. The system worked great all those times, I don't think it's wise to chuck it out one time it didn't.

For many years the US had the top men's skaters. They have not had that in several years hence. And the topic was highly discussed before this competition. You didn't notice? Your human reaction concept is totally wrong.
The thing is, it is NOT a rule; it's a tradition, when the USFS team had top contestants and expected to place in Nationals. They haven't had that for quite some time. The Rule can remain, but will it be followed that the Panel making the decision on the makeup of the World Team only considers injury to a prominent skater to be on the Team.

The fact is in 2011, the star didn't help; the two newbees didn't help, and all were chosen because of their podium finish at a Nationals, and not as other Feds who consider the makeup to be a study in information garnered over time. Did you notice that Russia threw out their winner of the Men's Nationals and replaced him with Gachinsky. Would you say they should not have selected Gachinsky?

wallow · Apr 30, 2011

I don't think it mattered who the USFSA sent there were not going to get 3 spots. Even though a lot the same skaters who competed a year ago were there the field for this felt much deeper.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2011

Optimal results at Worlds is not a USFS position? What is their position? Since when is fairness considered in a team selection? I believe that Figure Skating results are bent on nationalties and not on athletes. The best skater wins from whatever country and Federations are compelled to send their very best. There is a lot to consider in the selection.

If we think about the top five, could Jeremy have been there? If we think about the top 10 could Adam be there? They were not even considered based upon a faulty decision due to a one time result at a nationals.

Can anyone tell me about Fariness being the way to go for selection a Worlds Team?

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2011

wallow said:
I don't think it mattered who the USFSA sent there were not going to get 3 spots. Even though a lot the same skaters who competed a year ago were there the field for this felt much deeper.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I differ with the circumstances. Both Jeremy and Adam have been top 6 skaters. Had they been at Worlds, their competition this season would be compared with a less-than-expected Takahashi and Oda, both of whom could have succumbed to Adam and Jeffrey, but they weren't there and while my opinion is just speculation, I would not make a thoughtless statement that "it didn't matter".

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2011

Oh, on Canada's three Men. Unfortunately, Sawyer did not live up to his High Tech Quality, which would even top Gachinsky's. he could have easily been top 12.

I don't see many Canadian Men in GPs or their Nationals, so I can't say another skater would have made top 12.

Kwanford Wife · Apr 30, 2011

Joesitz said:
Optimal results at Worlds is not a USFS position? What is their position? Since when is fairness considered in a team selection? I believe that Figure Skating results are bent on nationalties and not on athletes. The best skater wins from whatever country and Federations are compelled to send their very best. There is a lot to consider in the selection.

If we think about the top five, could Jeremy have been there? If we think about the top 10 could Adam be there? They were not even considered based upon a faulty decision due to a one time result at a nationals.

Can anyone tell me about Fariness being the way to go for selection a Worlds Team?

But Joe, then we'd have to be grown ups about this sport and I just don't think people are there yet. Fairness should play a part in awarding medals, but selecting the World and Olympic teams should come down to who has the best shot. This logic is hard enough for fans to swallow for injured competitors, but allowing healthy skaters to participate at international events when they have off comps at Nationals? I'm not sure folks can wrap their brains around it...yet.

But I have hope that at USFS will start to adopt the JFS approach one day. Maybe.

Poodlepal · Apr 30, 2011

I think that the US judges like a good sob story, and Ryan Bradley was it this year. He is a fan favorite, he's very personable, and some feel he should've been sent over an underperforming Johnny last year. This was sort of a gift to him. I think everyone knew he wouldn't medal (and he probably did, too, deep in his heart.) But he should have gotten one of the three spots, at least based on his great SP and OK LP.

However, I think it was a big mistake not sending the only "famous" person to this competition. Jeremy Abbott is liked by the judges, and would have been gotten good components scores (possibly) even if he made some errors. Richard and Ross, as unknowns, would not.

I would reserve one spot based on performances in the 4CC or GPF of that year. If someone who didn't make the team (based on nationals) medals at one of those competitions over someone who did (but not the champion), judges should consider changing the rules.

This year, however, it wouldn't work because Ross and Richard didn't go to 4CC, so we don't know if they would have beaten Jeremy. It's possible that one of them would have, and the team would remain the same. The ladies' choices would be a different story, however.

SPOILER AHEAD
Mirai did beat someone at 4CC who beat her at nationals. That person--who I now think will make a better chemist than figure skater--lost the potential 3rd spot and said she had a broken leg.They should've sent Mirai. I know she has her issues, but afaik, her leg isn't broken!

wallow · Apr 30, 2011

Joesitz said:
You are entitled to your opinion, but I differ with the circumstances. Both Jeremy and Adam have been top 6 skaters. Had they been at Worlds, their competition this season would be compared with a less-than-expected Takahashi and Oda, both of whom could have succumbed to Adam and Jeffrey, but they weren't there and while my opinion is just speculation, I would not make a thoughtless statement that "it didn't matter".

I based my "thoughtless statement" on every Worlds that Jeremy has been to and not just last years. He had 2 11th place and his one 5th place finish. His last years 5th place finish would have put him at 7th this year. Adam has never beaten Jeremy. While I have no idea if this year would have been different, I only based my theories on what both skaters have done in the past(especially at the World Championships). It's not an exact science, it's not some thoughtless statement I pulled out thin air.

Did you confuse Jeremy with Jeffrey Buttle?

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2011

Kwanford Wife said:
But Joe, then we'd have to be grown ups about this sport and I just don't think people are there yet. Fairness should play a part in awarding medals, but selecting the World and Olympic teams should come down to who has the best shot. This logic is hard enough for fans to swallow for injured competitors, but allowing healthy skaters to participate at international events when they have off comps at Nationals? I'm not sure folks can wrap their brains around it...yet.

But I have hope that at USFS will start to adopt the JFS approach one day. Maybe.

It would not be difficult, KW, despite the fact that we do not have a Piseev to pull punches. We could use the points method. My sample as follows:

Last Years Worlds top 10 = points for each placement;
GPs and GPF = top eight for each GP placement, and GPF gets double the points;
US Nationals = top ten for each placement - no doubling
4CC = I'm not sure since it is limited to entrants. The GPs will somehow have all the top players involved.

Also a few specialists from previous US medalists opinions may also contriute to the selection in cases of ties.

Mathman · Apr 30, 2011

Joesitz said:
Can anyone tell me about Fariness being the way to go for selection a Worlds Team?

Kwanford Wife said:
But Joe, then we'd have to be grown ups about this sport and I just don't think people are there yet.

I am dumbstruck by this exchange. Even grown-ups should care about fairness. (Crazy, I know.)

CARA · Apr 30, 2011

Mathman said:
I am dumbstruck by this exchange. Even grown-ups should care about fairness. (Crazy, I know.)

My sentiment, exactly!

Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds?

lavender

Bluebonnet

CARA

Violet Bliss

CARA

Bluebonnet

CARA

Mathman

museksk8r

Joesitz (RIP)

wallow

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

Kwanford Wife

Poodlepal

wallow

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

CARA

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