Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds?

[Joesitz]

I am dumbstruck by this exchange. Even grown-ups should care about fairness. (Crazy, I know.)

Should an American follow your perception of the Rule of Fairness, and the other Feds do not have to. Does it make you feel better, personally?

Did you confuse Jeremy with Jeffrey Buttle?

Of course not. I mentioned the possibilities of Buttle way back years ago. I did the same with Patrick when I first saw him. I am all for good skating from wherever. I was just speaking about the American system of selecting its World Team and I detected a bit of sarcasm by you in skipping the subject, and even now you inject a snarky remark of confusement. Stick to the topic. If you think the American system is the way to go, just say it.

[Mathman]

Should an American follow your perception of the Rule of Fairness, and the other Feds do not have to. Does it make you feel better, personally?

Well, I have to be candid. I don't really care what other federations do. They will do as they think best. We should, too.

What I can't get over is this view that we should not be fair in the way we choose U.S. representatives for world competitions. We should always be fair to our athletes. Always.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I just don't get how having a specified selection criterion that exists beyond solely using Nationals is unfair.

[Mathman]

^ No, that is not unfair.

But the question posed on this thread was, should we choose the worlds team by the most fair method, or should "we" (unspecified who "we" are) intervene and choose the "best" team, without regard to fairness.

Should the USFS look into changing the regulation that the best choice is not necessarily the fairest choice?

Now…having said that…

There is still a sense in which the winner-take-all nationals is the most fair to all U.S. skaters. At the beginning of the season every aspiring skater in the country who has tested into seniors has an equal opportunity to compete in their regional championships.. Top four advance to sectionals. Top four at sectionals advance to nationals. Winners at nationals make the worlds team.

“You’re Michelle Kwan? Good for you, I’m Suzie Smith – let’s get it on!” What could be fairer than that?

[bigsisjiejie]

If the technical panel and judges at US Nationals called the skating similarly to how international competition panels do, I'd have no problem with using US Nationals as it's currently used--the linchpin of the "winners take all" system for berths to Worlds, 4CC, etc. But when US panels seem to markedly deviate from international panels in what they are seeing and judging, it troubles me.

[ImaginaryPogue]

What bigsisjiejie says.

[Mathman]

If the U.S. judges say one thing and intenational judges say another, who is right?

[SkateFiguring]

Is there a clearly stated official goals of the US Nationals?

Somebody please find it for me.

[bigsisjiejie]

If the U.S. judges say one thing and intenational judges say another, who is right?

When it comes out to handing placements and medals at international competitions, the international judges are right. Always. That's the reality of the situation.

[SkateFiguring]

If the U.S. judges say one thing and intenational judges say another, who is right?

They are all right, at their events, like monarchs in their own kingdoms. But is it about right or wrong? Judges rule on quality so it's really about the standard and whether or not the standards should be synchonized. If they should, then it's the national judges that need to adjust.

Tech Panels' calls, OTOH, should not vary.

Theorectically, they all go by the same ISU stipulations, i.e. the same standard.

[Mathman]

When it comes out to handing placements and medals at international competitions, the international judges are right. Always. That's the reality of the situation.

Well, yes, and by the same token, the U.S. judges are always right in giving scores at U.S. Nationals. (?)

The question still remains, what is the fairest way to make assignments to the U.S. Worlds team? You are addressing instead the question, how can the U.S. get the most medals at Worlds?

But that is the whole question that this thread raises. Which of the two principles should be foremost?

[Bluebonnet]

I just don't get how having a specified selection criterion that exists beyond solely using Nationals is unfair.

My thought exactly the same!

I don't get it. Why having Nationals as a sole method for selecting the world team is fair, while having Nationals along with international competition records together as a method for the same purpose would be not fair?

The international competitions are competitions. The team you are selecting is going to do an international competition similar to the competitions you'd be based on for the selecting. Do you mean the records that US skaters got at the GP series are not fair records? Only Nationals are fair? Look at the US Nationals which has just rewarded the most popular skater by ignoring his under rotations and low basic skating skills, using different favoritism, which has undermined the country's chances on the big international stage. Is that fair to the 176,000 members of USFSA? Is that fair to the country?

[Mathman]

Is there a clearly stated official goals of the US Nationals?

Somebody please find it for me.

I tried to find an "official" statement, but without success. I am pretty sure the official goal is to crown the United States Champions in the four disciplines.

As for the official selection rules, for some reason I am not able to link directly to the pdf file, but if you Google "2010 Official U.S. Figure Skating Rulebook" it pops up at the top. The rules for selecting the U.S. World team are on page 34 (Selection of Athletes).

According to the by-laws the U.S Champion automatically goes to worlds, and if their are additional places to fill then the International Committee is supposed to take into account U.S. Nationals placement, last years worlds, four continents, junior worlds and the grand prix final, with the most weight given to U.S. Nationals placement. In practice, the weighting has pretty much been, U.S. Nationals 100%, the rest 0%.

However, in the last couple of years the language has been tweaked in the direction of giving "The Committee" more leeway than has previously been customary in bringing international results into play. Whether or not this signals a sea change in the way the USFSA looks at the selection process is anybody's guess at this point.

[Mathman]

I don't get it. Why having Nationals as a sole method for selecting the world team is fair, while having Nationals along with international competition records together as a method for the same purpose would be not fair?

Because not every skater has an opportunity to skate in international competitions.

Look at the US Nationals which has just rewarded the most popular skater by ignoring his under rotations and low basic skating skills. That is not fair.

Bad judging at U.S. Nationals is not fair. The USFSA should continue to do everything within its power to assure competent and unbiased judging.

I guess my problem is (to quote Dick Button) that I don't really give a rusty hoot about the ISU.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Totally fair. And honestly, since I rather do give a hoot about the ISU (as exists for the World Champions), more power to the US Federation. In the end, it benefits every other nation for the USA march to a different beat, so have at it!