Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds?

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
What I think is that the US sent the wrong team to 4CC's, not to Worlds. They should have believed in their winner take all philosophy, and sent at least 2 of the Worlds team to 4CC's (which is what they usually have done. Usually its the winner that doesn't go). What they did by sending none of them was say to the world, "Our nationals was a fluke, and these are at least 2 of our top guys (maybe 3)." Or at the very least, they said, "All of our guys are not World class right now, so we're giving all 6 a chance for some experience." Neither is a good thing to do.

Having used their normal method to select the Worlds team, finishing first at Nationals, they should have assessed the situation more sensibly. They were sending Ross to Worlds without the World getting to see the "new, improved" Ross that we saw at Nationals. Whomever else they sent to 4CC's, Ross should have been on that team, in order to spiff up his international reputation. I'm with Blades of Passion: I would have Ross 6th at Worlds. And he might have scored there if he had gotten a chance to get some more time in front of international judges.

Worse, Ross should have finished ahead of Dornbush at Nationals. Dornbush's SP was very, very overscored, and Ross (again because of his lack of reputation) underscored mostly in the SP, but even a bit in the LP. He should at least have been ahead of Mroz, Razzano & Messing in the SP. Leaving him home from Worlds would have been the most significantly unfair thing that could have been done by USFS.

Adam Rippon has shown almost no ability to land a triple axel this year, in a year when over half the guys at Worlds were throwing quads, let alone triple axels. And at Four Continents, he finished fifth with 210.01 points. A perusal of the Worlds scores shows that Adam would have scored below Ryan Bradley there, and would have finished no better than 14th. Sending Adam to Four Continents was pure stupidity. Armin Mahbahnoozedeh scored 200.67 at Four Continents-need I say more about him and his chances at Worlds? Neither should have gone to Four Continents.

I could make a case for leaving Dornbush home from 4CC's (& send him to Jr Worlds and Sr Worlds, although that is not something USFS usually does, as he would surely have won Jr Worlds) or leaving Bradley home Then you could send Abbott there to get his international card punched for the year.

So their problem in this year isn't their system, but not believing in their system.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I'm with Blades of Passion: I would have Ross 6th at Worlds. And he might have scored there if he had gotten a chance to get some more time in front of international judges.

I think you are off line for a little too long. Not many people want to be associated with BoP's rants in this past week, perhaps you should catch up on that in your reading here. The latest gem was Ando should be off the podium and D/W winning is a travesty / due.

As for Ross should be 6th at Worlds, I don't agree. But I am curious if you can elaborate your thought a little more and compare him to some of the skaters ranked above him to justify the 6th place finish, if necessary.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This being said I think the biggest issue I have is the scoring at Nationals. Mathman do you think its fair for the USFSA to give a skater who (is not an up and coming skater who isn't well known internationall) but rather a skater who has been around for a long time, has poor basic skating skills, huge PCS?

No.

Is it fair to give said skater credit for jumps he did not rotate,...

No.

...that he wouldn't get credit for in international competition.

To me, that is a separate and largely irrelevant question. Judges should judge what they see to the best of their ability, without regard to what they guess some different panel of judges might or might not do.

(Sorry about the Kumbayah chorus. :laugh: )
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
So their problem in this year isn't their system, but not believing in their system.
But Doris, the system is not open for change. The automatic Winner of the US Nats was sent to Worlds. That can not be changed. If there are multiple spots open as there was for 2011, the Silver and Bronze medalists go to Worlds by tradition, although the Committee could choose others. They prefer to change the team only if a remarkable skater was injured and could not participate in US Nats. Maybe Jeremy would have been chosen if he had a good excuse not to skate Nats. We dunno. Kwan, we know had a special closed audition to qualify for Worlds. Was that the system one should believe in?

The system is the subject for the future. The team the USFS sent is over and done with. Should there be a study to come up with the Best Team or should the Best Team be based on one risky competition?
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
So their problem in this year isn't their system, but not believing in their system.

Whole post was interesting and the best take on the US selection process I have read.

I liked your ending sentence quoted above which is quite a different twist than anyone else has offered.

Sometimes the most simple solution is the truest solution. :)
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
What I think is that the US sent the wrong team to 4CC's, not to Worlds. They should have believed in their winner take all philosophy, and sent at least 2 of the Worlds team to 4CC's (which is what they usually have done. Usually its the winner that doesn't go). What they did by sending none of them was say to the world, "Our nationals was a fluke, and these are at least 2 of our top guys (maybe 3)." Or at the very least, they said, "All of our guys are not World class right now, so we're giving all 6 a chance for some experience." Neither is a good thing to do.

Having used their normal method to select the Worlds team, finishing first at Nationals, they should have assessed the situation more sensibly. They were sending Ross to Worlds without the World getting to see the "new, improved" Ross that we saw at Nationals. Whomever else they sent to 4CC's, Ross should have been on that team, in order to spiff up his international reputation. I'm with Blades of Passion: I would have Ross 6th at Worlds. And he might have scored there if he had gotten a chance to get some more time in front of international judges.

Worse, Ross should have finished ahead of Dornbush at Nationals. Dornbush's SP was very, very overscored, and Ross (again because of his lack of reputation) underscored mostly in the SP, but even a bit in the LP. He should at least have been ahead of Mroz, Razzano & Messing in the SP. Leaving him home from Worlds would have been the most significantly unfair thing that could have been done by USFS.

Adam Rippon has shown almost no ability to land a triple axel this year, in a year when over half the guys at Worlds were throwing quads, let alone triple axels. And at Four Continents, he finished fifth with 210.01 points. A perusal of the Worlds scores shows that Adam would have scored below Ryan Bradley there, and would have finished no better than 14th. Sending Adam to Four Continents was pure stupidity. Armin Mahbahnoozedeh scored 200.67 at Four Continents-need I say more about him and his chances at Worlds? Neither should have gone to Four Continents.

I could make a case for leaving Dornbush home from 4CC's (& send him to Jr Worlds and Sr Worlds, although that is not something USFS usually does, as he would surely have won Jr Worlds) or leaving Bradley home Then you could send Abbott there to get his international card punched for the year.

So their problem in this year isn't their system, but not believing in their system.

Very interesting and fresh point. Except it would have been nice to send Dornbush to 4CC too. That way, worlds wouldn't have been his first senior international competition.

Hard to say what would have made a difference. I find it impossible to make a case for Adam Rippon making the world team this season. He simply didn't live up to his talent. Not even close. And it's highly doubtful he would have done so at worlds.

Obviously, there is a much greater case to be made for Jeremy, although he too struggled all season and was never close to the skater who won nationals last year.

I always forget but the under the current rules, the U.S. champion automatically gets a world berth if he/she is old enough right? Or am I wrong?

So, if I'm remembering the rules correctly, the U.S. could have decided to send Ryan, Richard and Jeremy or Ryan, Ross and Jeremy.

With that team it's still possible that the U.S. would have lost their two spots. Given how Ross, Ryan and Richard placed, Jeremy's duplicating his best ever world placement - fifth - would not have been good enough. And like, I said, throwing Adam on the team probably wouldn't have made much difference either given how he performed all season.

But yeah, having Jeremy on the team obviously would have increased the chances of keeping three spots, not to mention getting a medal. Given the way it went for Dai and Oda, it's certainly not impossible that Jeremy might have snagged a medal. But it's equally possible that he would have finished several places off the podium.

Jeremy has by far the best international record of the current Americans but if he had a better record it would just be so much easier to have this discussion. If he was a world or Olympic medalist or had made the GPF this season - and preferably medaled then it would be easier for me to live with the U.S. kicking one of the medalists off the team in favor of Jeremy.
As it is, Jeremy's record clearly demonstrates him to be the best American. So, I can see Joe's point. On the other hand, his record also suggests there is nothing to guarantee he would have done well at worlds. So, it's hard to think through this.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
No.



No.



To me, that is a separate and largely irrelevant question. Judges should judge what they see to the best of their ability, without regard to what they guess some different panel of judges might or might not do.

(Sorry about the Kumbayah chorus. :laugh: )
I'm sorry but its absolutely NOT irrelevant. If you want to talk about a FAIR system, I have to say its only fair if Nationals is judged the way Worlds would be judged. How fair it is to any of the skaters to put certain skaters on the world team, due to inflated scores at Nationals, when said skaters have no hope of ever being scored that way at Worlds. How fair is it to other US skaters, when said skaters performance at Worlds affects if they get to go to Worlds next year. IF the USFSA judges are going to pull this political crap then yes its time other results get taken into account.

Its one thing to give skaters a PCS boost when you know said skaters are young, not well known by international judges. If you look at Ross and Dornbush's scores at Worlds vs how Adam and Armin did at Four Continents, it wasn't ridiculous at all to put them over Adam and Armin. Abbott though is kind of questionable.
But Bradley's scores at Nationals was ridiculous. He was given credit for Skating Skills. HE DOESN"T HAVE. He was given credit for jumps he didn't rotate. Now its possible given his short was good he still might have been in top 3. Possible. But why the USFSA choose to give him those kind of inflated scores is just beyond me. It doesn't make sense, and certainly wasn't in the FAIR interests of any of the skaters. It makes me wonder if the USFSA even recognizes what the international standards ARE.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I'm sorry but its absolutely NOT irrelevant. If you want to talk about a FAIR system, I have to say its only fair if Nationals is judged the way Worlds would be judged. How fair it is to any of the skaters to put certain skaters on the world team, due to inflated scores at Nationals, when said skaters have no hope of ever being scored that way at Worlds. How fair is it to other US skaters, when said skaters performance at Worlds affects if they get to go to Worlds next year. IF the USFSA judges are going to pull this political crap then yes its time other results get taken into account.

Its one thing to give skaters a PCS boost when you know said skaters are young, not well known by international judges. If you look at Ross and Dornbush's scores at Worlds vs how Adam and Armin did at Four Continents, it wasn't ridiculous at all to put them over Adam and Armin. Abbott though is kind of questionable.
But Bradley's scores at Nationals was ridiculous. He was given credit for Skating Skills. HE DOESN"T HAVE. He was given credit for jumps he didn't rotate. Now its possible given his short was good he still might have been in top 3. Possible. But why the USFSA choose to give him those kind of inflated scores is just beyond me. It doesn't make sense, and certainly wasn't in the FAIR interests of any of the skaters. It makes me wonder if the USFSA even recognizes what the international standards ARE.

This seems to be a separate discussion from the one Joe wants to start with this thread. If I'm not mistaken, Joe's question is: let's say three people who are not really world medal contenders legitimately medal at nationals and someone who is lands off the podium? Should the U.S. be more open to the idea knocking one of the national medalists off the team in favor of the guy who is the world medal contender?

It's fair enough to question whether nationals was legitimately scored but it seems to me to be a separate issue.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I'm sorry but its absolutely NOT irrelevant. If you want to talk about a FAIR system, I have to say its only fair if Nationals is judged the way Worlds would be judged. How fair it is to any of the skaters to put certain skaters on the world team, due to inflated scores at Nationals, when said skaters have no hope of ever being scored that way at Worlds. How fair is it to other US skaters, when said skaters performance at Worlds affects if they get to go to Worlds next year. IF the USFSA judges are going to pull this political crap then yes its time other results get taken into account.

Its one thing to give skaters a PCS boost when you know said skaters are young, not well known by international judges. If you look at Ross and Dornbush's scores at Worlds vs how Adam and Armin did at Four Continents, it wasn't ridiculous at all to put them over Adam and Armin. Abbott though is kind of questionable.
But Bradley's scores at Nationals was ridiculous. He was given credit for Skating Skills. HE DOESN"T HAVE. He was given credit for jumps he didn't rotate. Now its possible given his short was good he still might have been in top 3. Possible. But why the USFSA choose to give him those kind of inflated scores is just beyond me. It doesn't make sense, and certainly wasn't in the FAIR interests of any of the skaters. It makes me wonder if the USFSA even recognizes what the international standards ARE.

Those seem to be fair points. Watching how US judges and then Intl judges score a couple of the US Ladies comes to mind as well. Giving a skater a 200 score that will never get more than 180 at Intl events does not feel fair to me unless all of the skaters are inflated equally . When that doesn't happen we know beyond too much doubt that favoritism/politics are involved.

I think if US judging continues to show some bewildering scores a strong case can be made for 4CC being used as a skate-off of sorts for spots that are close.

ETA: I just read your post layfan, and you make a good point.

What if US judges knew their placement at Natls was not the final word.
Might that get them to reconsider and maybe make an effort to get in-line with the Intl judges?

Why did we see skaters from Colo Springs two years in a row with some pretty questionale scores?
Scores they could never hope to match internationally or even hope to keep the margins they won with at Natls?
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Those seem to be fair points. Watching how US judges and then Intl judges score a couple of the US Ladies comes to mind as well. Giving a skater a 200 score that will never get more than 180 at Intl events does not feel fair to me unless all of the skaters are inflated equally . When that doesn't happen we know beyond too much doubt that favoritism/politics are involved.

I think if US judging continues to show some bewildering scores a strong case can be made for 4CC being used as a skate-off of sorts for spots that are close.

ETA: I just read your post layfan, and you make a good point.

What if US judges knew their placement at Natls was not the final word.
Might that get them to reconsider and maybe make an effort to get in-line with the Intl judges?

Why did we see skaters from Colo Springs two years in a row with some pretty questionale scores?
Scores they could never hope to match internationally or even hope to keep the margins they won with at Natls?

Problem is who is to say those deciding the final word would be anymore sensible than the national judges? (Assuming that you are right in believing the judging at nats this year was way off.)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Off topic to Hernando

This is off topic for this thread. It's about "pageants." ;)

I was just reading in the USFSA rulebook about the rules for competitive skaters to receive money for appearing in shows, exhibitions, etc. The official word used for this kind of event is "ice carnivals." :laugh:

So, is it sport or is it a carnival?
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
This is off topic for this thread. It's about "pageants." ;)

I was just reading in the USFSA rulebook about the rules for competitive skaters to receive money for appearing in shows, exhibitions, etc. The official word used for this kind of event is "ice carnivals." :laugh:

So, is it sport or is it a carnival?

As you very well know it is a little of both. Also part soap opera and political theater. :p
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I think you are off line for a little too long. Not many people want to be associated with BoP's rants in this past week, perhaps you should catch up on that in your reading here. The latest gem was Ando should be off the podium and D/W winning is a travesty / due.

As for Ross should be 6th at Worlds, I don't agree. But I am curious if you can elaborate your thought a little more and compare him to some of the skaters ranked above him to justify the 6th place finish, if necessary.

Talk about the definitive troll. Obviously someone is sad they have been out-debated at every turn and has to continue make up crap. I never came close to saying D/W winning was a travesty, I just said that I preferred Virtue/Moir (in the Free Dance, I thought Davis/White should have been 1st in the SD) and believe they definitely could have won Worlds with that performance if the politics of the year had been different. Obviously you are aghast that someone suggested politics played into judging, which makes you rather clueless.

Ando being off the podium is not difficult to comprehend either, given my detailed explanation. To reiterate again for those just tuning in: her non-jump elements were weaker than the people I felt should have been on the podium (Yu-Na / Kostner / Czisny), she didn't deliver all the jumps, and her choreography + interpretation was far weaker than all of those competitors.

------

BTW, excellent post dorispulaski.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
^ OK, but Miki skated great and deserved to win. :p

Had she skated like she did at 4CC, sure. Then I would have felt her victory was fair, given how everyone else skated. But she didn't.

Back on topic...if I had been in charge of selecting the World team for the U.S. Men, I would have picked Ryan Bradley, Ross Miner, and Jeremy Abbott (depending on if he was able to medal at 4CC, which he did). Ross Miner deserved 2nd at U.S. Nationals and I sure hope the judges don't keep holding him down below Richard Dornbush (who should have been sent to Junior Worlds and likely would have won). Miner had better choreography this season and skated with more musicality, in addition to being better technically than Dornbush at both Nationals and Worlds (especially Worlds).

I was in fact surprised that Miner's performances at Worlds both exceeded the ones he gave at Nationals. He looked more mature at Worlds, having more height than ever in his jumps. I believe Dornbush is getting higher scores because of his accomplishments on the Junior Grand Prix series and because he is physically more appealing to the standards of the USFSA.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
We are at the point of making dead horse smoothie here with all the beating of it. But let me pose a new question...

Does the US really deserve 3 spots for men? Some people are advocating an endless amount of guesswork and strategizing just so the US can keep those 3 vaunted spots. But for whom? In my opinion, the US clearly did not have 3 podium-class™ (a new word I just invented) skaters in men's this season, and whether it will the next one is up in the air and not looking good. I'm defining podium-class skaters as skaters who are legitimate challengers for the podiums. Skaters who can get on the podium in a surprise win (such as Artur Gachinsky) do not count, as that pretty much applies to a huge number of elite skaters.

Now of course, getting on the podium isn't the only reason to have spots and attend worlds. It's valuable experience, a nice reward and an all around good thing for any skater. But any scheme to maximize the winning potential of the world team has great costs, which must be weighed against its benefits.

First of all, the federation has to fund the international travel expenses of a bunch of its promising skaters, or a lot of them would not be able to attend all those international competitions. Indeed, that's what Japan and Russia do. It's only fair if you make attending and doing well in a large number of international comps the qualifier for going to Worlds or the Olympics! The USFS does not have that kind of money, and to get it, they would need to really rearrange its financial structure (such as collecting most of the fees and prize money skaters earn). Plus it would be more expensive for the USFS to do this than for most European federations, because Europe has far more international competitions on the same continent than the US (Japan can pull it off now that skating is huge there). And this kind of collectivist system probably won't fly in the US (then again it seems to have happened in US gymnastics, so never say never).

Second, this puts a great deal of pressure on skaters to compete for a full season, even if it's not good for them physically. For instance, Daisuke came back from injury after the 08-09 season to compete in all the events of the 09-10 Olympic one. And physically, he was just not the same. The jumps were not as good as they were before his hiatus, and they still aren't. Now I don't know if he'd be in better shape if he gave himself more time to heal. But it's not an unlikely scenario in figure skating. Maybe Daisuke would've been in much better shape if he knew he could just attend Japanese nationals, do well there, and get sent to the Olympics. That became an unlikely option in a system that requires participating in a full season of international comps to qualify because even if the rules allow for extenuating circumstances, the pressure is there for a skater to run the gauntlet, even if they have to limp through it.

Given all this, is it really worth it just to increase the likelihood that we can send one extra skater to Worlds? Skaters can gain international competition experience and exposure in a dozen other ways.

The fact is, every member nation of the ISU is entitled to send one skater/team in each discipline (as long as they have a skater/team that meets the qualifying score). Any extra spot is a bonus. Not having the full amount of bonus slots isn't that big of a deal. For the next worlds, only Japan has 3 spots for men's, and they most certainly have 3 deserving ones in that discipline. Does the US even have 2? Don't get me wrong, I love love love many second tier skaters in the US and elsewhere. But we only have one proven podium-class skater in Jeremy Abbott, and he is inconsistent as hell. And we already have a spot for him if he can earn it as well as one more for whatever new or old talent who rises to the occasion.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^ OK, but Miki skated great and deserved to win. :p
Why not? Opinions are just that.

I would say, imo, that Alene Leonova was the best in the competition because she dared not to skate in the ballet-like fashion and had the Tech and character of the music to do so.

Miki was the most competitive but she didn't WoW me.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Why not? Opinions are just that.

I would say, imo, that Alene Leonova was the best in the competition because she dared not to skate in the ballet-like fashion and had the Tech and character of the music to do so.

Miki was the most competitive but she didn't WoW me.

So in your opinion "not skating in a balletic-like fashion" is the single most important factor in placing skaters :think:

Haven't you said many times that "blades on ice skill" is the most important aspect of skating?

Do you think Alena displayed better blades on ice skill than Carolina or Yuna?

For tech, would you say Alena displayed the best spins? Or the most intricate steps? Were her jumps as big as Miki, Yuna or Carolina?

Was she in time with the music and interpreting it the best?
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I would have Ross 6th at Worlds.

It is unjustifiable to claim this. Clean doesn't mean enough.

Before the Worlds when the Bradley-hype was up, there were many detailed analysis on how he could claim a world medal, as if he really could. And the hopes were high in some people. It has at last proved what many others have already said about Bradley that his skating was not up to the par of international standard like some have claimed. Now, it is starting a round of Miner-hype.

Face it. US did not send their best skater/skaters to the worlds and USFSA knew it. That was why they've sent other three to 4CC. If they rewarded their National winners like how they did, it was hard, even for themselves, to believe the winner deserved all. But Bradley was truly the sentimental favorite. Most of people, if not all, were very very happy that he has finally won a title that he could carry onto his next chapter.

So I guess the best for USFSA this time was to give Bradley the win at the Nationals, then to select a world team through broader criterion which wouldn't hurt the country as a whole. Politics, yes.:p
 
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