Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds?

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^^^
Good questions: 1. I consider Free Skating a form of dance, and since figure skating has always copied other dance forms (has none of its own) I look for diversity in presentation. The Ladies, in particular, attempt more ballet-like presentations than any other forms, from acrobatics (eg Pairs) to hip hop. All forms of Dance can be chosen but for most of the ladies, there is the lyrical ballet-like attempt. The competition does not show diversity when there is no rule against it. The boys are much more diversified.

2. Both Miki and Carolina skated the ballet-like arms style to Chopin and Debussy. Beautiful music but not much on diverse tempos. I no longer get upset about championships results, but I question them in terms of skating rules and regulations sometimes. I am not sure how much musicianship plays in the scoring. I know it has about 20% in the PC, and can not be considered figure skating without it. But that's another topic. I was definitely not in tune with Kim who was more about the tricks than music.

3. Alene and who else? skated to Character Music. Character dancing is a form used within Classical Ballet to show ethnic influences. It is a valid form of dance. Alene did not attempt a Debussy type of music. Is that wrong? I don't think so. She doesn't have the long legs of Miki and Carolina, but she knows how to dance. I believe she deserved the Silver and Kim the Pewter.

4. Alene's Tech was sufficient using high level jumps and spins and that footwork had flair. I'm just not into the itty bitty scoring of the CoP. Unless one is moved by faux emotions over faux ballet and favoritism, it was quite clear that Alene stood out among the crowd of ladies.
 

bibi24

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
LOL I come in here expecting to catch updates on American men, but I find men have turned into women and become foreign.

*Off-Topic*, the tradition of Golden Skate forums!
 

Snoopy

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
I think the scoring at Nationals was so far off that if they actually score things right then perhaps it would have been a different result.

I personally think Ryan's national long program was bad. It was sloppy. I think the scores that they gave Ryan gave him the idea that he would actually be competitive and medal.

I agree and I don't understand why skaters think a program making fun of classical music will "fly" with most figure skating audiences. Most of us like classical music. Also, if you are going to do it, it needs to be done well (think Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning). Not many can pull it off and the crowds in Moscow did not seem amused. His programs were very amateurish and lacked content (other than jumps).
 

Snoopy

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
No they couldn't have. Not without a Quad. Well, Abbott could have if he skated perfect in both the SP and LP, but that's more than just a "good day" and something he hasn't done all season. His showing at 4CC is pretty much what could have been expected of him at Worlds and that would have put him outside of the top 6. The U.S. was likely going to lose 3 spots no matter what, simply because Abbott is the only U.S. guy that had considerable international clout and he hasn't had a good season. Ross Miner skated well enough to deserve 6th place, IMO, and look at where the judges placed him. They placed Richard Dornbush higher with inferior performances because of his clout of dominating the Junior Grand Prix this season.

Reputation, politics, timing. The U.S. guys just weren't going to get it done this year without a mini-miracle.

I think name recognition goes a long way in skating (those judges...they're still human) so I think clean programs by Abbott and/or Rippon would have placed them in the top 5. Rippon is well liked by the international judges and his choreography and skating skills are far superior to Gachinsky. Abbott, if he did have a mini-miracle and skated clean programs, could certainly have been placed ahead of Gachinsky. Given that they would have had extra time to prepare, it is possible.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
LOL I come in here expecting to catch updates on American men, but I find men have turned into women and become foreign.
Absolutely. There was even a topic that morphed into the Academy Awards for several posts and pages. Unfortunately, once it starts, it gets a lot of consideration from others. Should the morphing stop? is the question, and how?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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It is unjustifiable to claim this. Clean doesn't mean enough.

Before the Worlds when the Bradley-hype was up, there were many detailed analysis on how he could claim a world medal, as if he really could. And the hopes were high in some people. It has at last proved what many others have already said about Bradley that his skating was not up to the par of international standard like some have claimed. Now, it is starting a round of Miner-hype.

Can you please stop being so Nationalistic? My assessment of the performances has nothing to do with what country someone skates for. I predicted Bradley would not even make the top 6, although I hoped he would do well, and was annoyed that people were dumping on him before he even skated. A look at the scores shows Bradley would have been in at least 4th place had he delivered all of the jumps and maybe he would have even won Bronze if his PCS had gone up as a result of perfect performances. This obviously wasn't likely but it was possible. He ended up not delivering.

I was impressed by Miner months ago at U.S. Nationals and thought he deserved 2nd place there. If he had done a Triple-Triple in his SP at Nationals instead of just a Triple-Double, then I would have felt he deserved to be National Champion. Research my posts on here if you don't believe me.

At Worlds, he performed even better. I believe Miner's choreography was among the best of the competition (as explained in the other thread) and the technical elements were strong as well. Yes, the judges put him in 11th. So what? They have shown time and time again to be strongly influenced not by the quality of the skating but rather reputation and other factors. If the judges looked at every skater who entered the competition as having the potential to win the competition, and then graded them based purely upon their skating ability shown at the competition and the quality and difficulty of their programs and performances, then I believe Miner would have deserved 6th place.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
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United-States
One thing that all the US men did, that is probably inadvisable, is to skate to American movie scores. When you're trying to portray a story and some of the judges and audience are just :confused: by the references, it's probably not a good thing.

Apparently not everyone has seen Amadeus (Oscar or no Oscar) not to mention Casablanca (on many critics' best movies ever list) let alone Sherlock Holmes (which I haven't seen, for that matter, though I read the books when I was a kid).
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Miner's imitation alcohol quaffing is the only part of the program I don't really like (a couple obligatory CoP spin positions and +2Toe/2Toe combination jump aside).
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
One thing that all the US men did, that is probably inadvisable, is to skate to American movie scores. When you're trying to portray a story and some of the judges and audience are just :confused: by the references, it's probably not a good thing.

Apparently not everyone has seen Amadeus (Oscar or no Oscar) not to mention Casablanca (on many critics' best movies ever list) let alone Sherlock Holmes (which I haven't seen, for that matter, though I read the books when I was a kid).

I've watched movie Amadeus over 5 times (Never watched the other two). I knew the comical side of Mozart. I worship the movie, but hate Bradley's parody. As Mozart said to Austrian emporer, "I'm a vulgar man. But my music isn't." I dislike Bradley's taste-less approach in making fun of classical music in a serious competition. In shows, I still won't like it, but I can ignore it, or just won't watch it.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Miner's imitation alcohol quaffing is the only part of the program I don't really like (a couple obligatory CoP spin positions and +2Toe/2Toe combination jump aside).
We have to put up with this. Interpretation scores and more skaters prefer to follow an outside story line because they have led a sheltered life. For my money, Interpretation means get into the character of the music. How many skaters can?

Miner has enough musical abilities to skip the gimmicks.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Well, Miner was not going to pretend smoke because Browning already did it in the original. The choice of Casa Blanca was brave. Kurt's was a masterpiece, a pioneering theme based character based skate. Under the CoP system, he would have won an Olympic medal.

You may call it a gimmick, but Kurt said the simple stroll was one of the hardest parts of the program.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
Didn't Kurt do an imitation of Bogart as an established skater and not as his first time in a Worlds competition? Btw, I am big on Kurt but imitating a movie star or even cutting a two hour movie story down to 4minutes doesn't grab me. Saturday Night Live can do Parody better. I believe in the separation of Show Skating and Competitive Skating. Surf Boarding in the movies is not the same as LIVE in a Worlds championship on Waikaki Beach.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
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Jun 27, 2003
^^^
Didn't Kurt do an imitation of Bogart as an established skater and not as his first time in a Worlds competition? Btw, I am big on Kurt but imitating a movie star or even cutting a two hour movie story down to 4minutes doesn't grab me. Saturday Night Live can do Parody better. I believe in the separation of Show Skating and Competitive Skating. Surf Boarding in the movies is not the same as LIVE in a Worlds championship on Waikaki Beach.

yes and it's still held as one of the best skates of all time in a competition. He skated it at the 1993 Worlds - where he won his final title - and again in Lillehammer. He didn't just mug for the cameras, he laid down the technical just like always. Fantastic program. His stuff before that doesn't even come close.
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
Kurt really upped his technical content with Casa Blanca, including several 3/3 jumps in the program, quite a challenge at the time to other male skaters. The program lived up to the buzz.

The character portrayal was ultra cool.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
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Jun 27, 2003
So he couldn't do it without Bogart's help? I think he could have done on music alone.

It was his most artistic program to date, IMO, is all I'm saying. He really captured the character of, yes, the movie. It was much more engaging than his jumping pass long programs to firebird, or Romeo & Juliet.. and much more mature (again IMO) than his Grand Canyon Suite. His St. Louis Blues short program at the olympics is also a masterpiece, but he wasn't able to escape into a character and I think that hindered him at the Olys. He was just himself and he... well... didn't have the best skate. :disapp:


Casablanca was a model program for the ISU officials who built the CoP.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I have no qualms with Browning's program or the movie references therein at all. It was wonderful.

I just don't like that one spot in Miner's program because he delivers it too happily and also because it doesn't seem connected to the rest of the program or at least it isn't given enough time to be relevant, as with the time Browning's program spent to overtly explore character in his program. There are other parts of Miner's program that are choreographically superior to Browning's, though. I like the way he started the program softer.
 

Jaana

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Jul 27, 2003
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Finland
I think it was right for USFSA to send Bradley, Dornbush and Miner to Worlds, because they were the National medalists. On the other hand it was not right to give Bradley inflated technical and PCS scores, that made his win possible. It is not good for US judges in Nationals to judge skaters more leniently than international judges would do.
 
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Serious Business

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Jan 7, 2011
Pfft, 3 slots. Would the US even have 3 world class skaters competitive with the rest of the world's best to send to Worlds next year? As the recent worlds showed us, what's needed to compete for the top in men's is a reliable quad + the full package in skating skills and transitions. So far I can only count 1 definite among the ranks of US men. If Jeremy Abbott continues next season, that's the 1 (but he is inconsistent as hell). If Dornbush, Miner or Jason Brown picks up a consistent quad, that'd be 2, but that's a big if (although chances are one of them could do it, right?). A third spot would be nice if we miraculously develop a third skater with a quad + package, but that's a luxury at this stage. IMO, there's no guarantee the US men can even make the best use of its two spots. So I say pfft to all this talk of how badly we need 3.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
..So I say pfft to all this talk of how badly we need 3.

IMHO it is a middle-sized goal that can help us keep our spirits up until we can summon the wherewithal to tackle greater challenges.

Like when the young riders from Rohan, from Westfold far away, or husbandmen from Lossmarch were unmanned at the sight of the gates of Mordor. So Aragorn, more in pity than in anger, sent them away to the southwest to seize Cair Andros from the Enemy.

And thus they took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their measure that they could turn to. :yes:
 
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