Ladies - Long Program

[kyla2]

I am so happy for Miki Ando. She skated the best out of the bunch and she deserves the win. She is thoroughly deserving. I am also happy for Japan. A small ray of sunshine in a horrible year for them. Flatt should have withdrawn earlier. Alot earlier. She should never have come to begin with. She knew she had a fx tibia and did not tell people until she skated badly. A mistake and the results were predictable. Mirai is the only star on the horizon for the U.S. Alissa is a lovely skater but way too inconsistent.

[Krislite]

The judges really are hating on Mao lately, espcially at this event. She is never given the benifit of the doubt and her PCS are shameful. I feel so sorry for her because it seems like once the judges choose favorites, there is really nothing that can be done. She should not have been on the podium here, but <<??? really? and why low PCS? her fresskate in particular is a beautiful program.


on another note, it's interesting that Miki won last time Worlds were in Tokyo in 2007. Maybe she has to be inspired by her country to win?

Her PCS did seem low, but the << on the 3A is obvious. The replay shows she landed that 3A forward, half a revolution short. Amano is unforgiving on her 3A.

Either the judges were holding down her PCS or they were taken aback by Mao's lack of energy and speed in that program. She looked so fragile, thin and tired, it could have affected the judges perception of her skating. Although her LP choreography is better than Bells, it's such a big difference compared to the fire and attack she had last year.

I noticed both Mao and Yuna's PCS are about 1 point lower than last year, per component. Miki, on the other hand, went up slightly this year and is roughly on par with Yuna (!) and 1 point ahead of Mao (!) per component. That, to me, is quite a travesty.

Maybe the judges are comparing Mao and Yuna to their former selves last year, hence the decline in PCS. But the comparison should mostly be influenced by other skaters in the same competition.

[miki88]

Her PCS did seem low, but the << on the 3A is obvious. The replay shows she landed that 3A forward, half a revolution short. Amano is unforgiving on her 3A.

In the short, but I don't think so for the 3A in the FS and I watched it on replay several times.

Also, Mao did lack energy but I thought she was skating faster than Alissa. Alissa performed well but she was really slow in the FS. Ando's speed also wasn't much better to be honest.

[R.D.]

Recent Hersh article says that Czisny will be sticking around for at least one more season.

like I mentioned in the Czisny thread, she was the only one who "semi-stepped up" this season, and she seems to be a late bloomer (she's been around forever and is just now having a breakthrough)...Let's hope that it's the start of a nice streak instead of simply another high point on the roller-coaster.

[Blades of Passion]

I do not see her Triple Axel as being << in the LP and have looked at it very closely. From the point she took off, her foot would have needed to land a few degrees left of the judges' wall for it to receive that much of a penalty. At worst, the very tip of her toepick touched the ice directly facing the judges' wall. Her 3Toe was not facing directly forwards from point of takeoff when it landed and shouldn't have been << either. Shin Amodio has made a lot of bad calls over the years.

However, the ISU seriously needs to DEFINE rotation and where to start counting it. There is no specific rule anywhere that does such a thing. The basic principle, however, is that every jump - at minimum, is actually 3/4 of turn less in the air than the definition of the jump on paper. If you look at most any Quad jump, the skater does not completely leave the ice until 1/2 of a rotation in (and people sometimes pre-rotate more than that, which needs to be penalized when assessing underrotations). Given that 1/4 of a turn leeway is allowed, a Quad is actually only 3 and 1/4 turns in the air at minimum (ideally you want to land further around but that's the minimum).

Anyway, I'm not a fan of the way Mao's choreography was changed after Nationals and her performance of it at Worlds definitely lacked spark (although her Triple Flip combinations were actually the best they've been all year). That final Spiral Sequence barely moved across the ice; I hate how it was moved to that spot in the program. Ending your program with a Spiral is cool in theory but the previously placement and choreography of the element was infinitely better...one of the major highlights of the program that was ruined.

[wallylutz]

Luckily I already live in Hollywood and have an additional career outside of skating. Yay!

Good for you! And if you are really hot in Hollywood, perhaps you should use your picture as the avatar instead of Lambiel?

But I'm not trying to be outlandish for the sake of it (please never again compare me to the disgusting Donald Trump).

Oh really? Between this gross exaggeration today and all others this past week, it's very hard to distinguish what exactly you were trying to accomplish by trying to split hair and attempt to be Pasha Grishuck as well. Therefore, the only logical explanation I can think of is that you are a Donald Trump wannabe. Sorry if that offends you but given SkateFiguring and others are investing in a Sour Grapes farm in your name, it's safe to say my sentiment here isn't alone.

Miki Ando did a 5-Triple program with unremarkable spins, average footwork, and very little choreography or care for the music. Why on Earth should I feel that such a program deserves to be placed higher than the 5-Triple programs of Carolina Kostner, Alissa Czisny, or Yu-Na Kim when they all had actual CHOREOGRAPHY and were superior in other areas to boot (Kostner on her footwork and spiral, Czisny on her spins, and Yu-Na on the spiral, footwork, and quality of the Lutzes).

You honestly believe you can BS your way through with me like this quote above? :sheesh: For one thing, dear BoP, the so called 5-Triple program are not all born equal. We are talking about Figure Skating 101 (Senior) here you know, 5-Triple could mean a base value of 21.7 or as much as 37.73, with the latter worth 74% more in value or a whopping 16 points in difference. When Patrick Chan opened a lead of just less than 12 points in the Men's SP over his closest rival, it was largely considered a lead that was too large for anyone to catch up and that was Men's skating. A difference of 16 points would have been fatal in Ladies' skating in 99% of cases, yet such difference can be achieved when two skaters both complete a 5-Triple program. So sorry, BoP, I have to debunk your red herring completely, because I just can't take your BS anymore as you are this close of becoming either a Donald Trump or Pasha Grishuck.

In the context of today's competition, among the ladies you mentioned, Czisny, Kostner, Kim and Ando; while they all had 5 Triples (to be exact, Czisny had 6, with one fall, though the BV is still based on 6 Triples, not 5), clearly not all the executed Triples were equal, hence their values fall between the wide theoretical range of 21.7 to 37.73 calculated above, some closer to the floor value than others and vice versa. Everything considered, Ando had 4.99 points higher BV than Kim, that's about the value of an extra Triple Loop. Looking at the spins and step sequence, while they all had the same levels on non-jump elements, Ando also racked up an extra 0.5 BV for making her Flying spin a flying change foot combination spin, which in my experience, I notice that almost only Japanese skaters do that in their LP. Very few other skaters take the time to maximize the value of their spins, which is exactly what Kim did as well. She could have gone the same route and upgrade / maximize the value of her Flying Spin. So why didn't she? It's not as if she is incapable of doing that. So 4.99-0.5, Ando's "5 Triple Program" still adds up to a good 4.49 points in difference, which is a little more than the value of a Triple Salchow. Hence, in reality, we can qualify by saying that Ando's 5 Triple Program really is a 6 Triple program and change vs. that of Kim's. Even if we accept your claim that Kim's GOE is better overall, clearly the panel also took that into account because after the GOE is considered, Ando's lead in TES shrank below the difference in the base value. However, with 2 obvious execution errors on the part of Kim vs. 1 from Ando, Kim shot herself in the foot by limiting her own GOE potential. Ando certainly didn't make a hole on ice so that Kim would fall into it. :sheesh:

As for the other ladies you mentioned, Kostner's 5 Triple Program had zero Triple Lutz whereas Ando has two. It's self-explanatory as to why Kostner's "5 Triple Program" is going to be very unequal vs. that of Ando's, again referring back to the wide range posted above. Czisny had a bad fall plus an edge call and her step sequence is graded as Level 2 only. Given how much you have advocated that Chan wasn't penalized enough for his error on his jump, which was only a step out, yet you claimed his negative GOE should be the double of what he actually received (and so that our readers know the number, it would add up to a wopping -3.18 for only a step out) - yet somehow you think Czisny splashing on the ice on a Triple shouldn't be serious enough to place behind Ando who didn't fall? Using your own standard that you suggested in the Men's LP thread, we should also double Czisny's negative GOE: -3.1 X 2 = -6.2 That's in addition to the edge call on her Triple Flip. So how do you justify that Czisny should be placed above Ando with your own customized deductions - not to mention, all things considered, Czisny's total BV is still below that of Ando before GOE?

Boy, I think I am having a little too much fun cutting through all your BS so I'll stop right here. I'll just let SkateFiguring feed you with the Sour Grapes she will be growing for you and hopefully, once you are on that diet 100% of the time, you will not be turned into a Donald Trump.

[jovani2293]

I would like to remained certain individuals, that we are figure skating fans NOT professional figure skating judges. They said that today Miki Ando was better then Kim Yuna. So get over it and deal with it. They are not going to change the results and to be quite honest Miki did skate better then Kim and we can't do anything about that.

[skatinginbc]

I have a question: Did the unexpected earthquake and inconvenient postpone of the World Championship have an impact on the selection or assignment of judges and technical specialists?

[bibi]

Carolina skated really well But, did anyone notice that she has a ''black spot'' between the legs ? It is kind of distracting.. I noticed that also during her Grand Prix earlier this season.

[bibi24]

I would like to remained certain individuals, that we are figure skating fans NOT professional figure skating judges.

Yeah seriously even skaters themselves don't spend so much time trying to rationalize / debating about scores. Hell they probably aren't as knowledgeable about the scoring system as certain individuals on here (just ask Nobunari Oda). Skaters just use these scores as a measuring stick, seeing how they did and see what they can improve on, that's it. It's always been the same way even in the old 6.0 system, you just take a glance at the scores and get back to training. Certainly not going to drool over the "should'ves, would'ves, could'ves, but didn'ts".

[dlgpffps]

The judges really are hating on Mao lately, espcially at this event. She is never given the benifit of the doubt and her PCS are shameful. I feel so sorry for her because it seems like once the judges choose favorites, there is really nothing that can be done. She should not have been on the podium here, but <<??? really? and why low PCS? her fresskate in particular is a beautiful program.

Perhaps because her skating was slow and labored? I'm not sure. I've been puzzled by her PCS ever since Miki edged her out in 4CC. Frankly, Miki's a nice skater who's shown a lot of improvement this season, but her overall finesse and skating beauty can't really hold a candle to Mao's (I seriously dislike her hunched stroking)...but really, let's not fool ourselves, we all know that PCS is a load of crap that fails to give a numerical representation of skating skills, performance, whatever. I've given up on PCS a long time ago. I'm just content as long as it doesn't tinker with the final standings, and I'm totally fine with Miki first.

Too bad Mao and Yu-na both failed to deliver. They are clearly the cream of the current crop, skaters to be remembered decades later, shoulder-to-shoulder with the greats. Perhaps it's time for another set of stars to take the scene. Miki winning with her diluted layout and choreographically empty LP was a letdown. Her SP was beautiful, but the more I watch her LP, the more vacant it appears. She deserved this title, but let's hope next Worlds proves more exciting.

[dlgpffps]

Oh and I hope Yu-na's not too upset with her performances. They were disappointing, yes, but fine given her total lack of competitive experience this season. Nothing to beat oneself down for. On a more positive note, she's won her fifth consecutive Worlds medal, which is second only to Michelle's nine, and she's been able to maintain her podium record, which is unprecedented. Also, no matter what, she's still an Olympic and one-time Worlds champion.

It's rather surprising that she's only a one-time WC given her consistency and caliber.

[Blades of Passion]

You honestly believe you can BS your way through with me like this quote above? :sheesh: For one thing, dear BoP, the so called 5-Triple program are not all born equal.

Yes, clearly, but it was the easiest way to represent what I was talking about without listing an entire protocol breakdown and I specifically mentioned Miki's extra 2Axel over Czisny. Do not even attempt to school me in CoP because you will lose. *Puts on a MERYL STREEP in Doubt face*

In the context of today's competition, among the ladies you mentioned, Czisny, Kostner, Kim and Ando; while they all had 5 Triples (to be exact, Czisny had 6, with one fall, though the BV is still based on 6 Triples, not 5), clearly not all the executed Triples were equal, hence their values fall between the wide theoretical range of 21.7 to 37.73 calculated above, some closer to the floor value than others and vice versa. Everything considered, Ando had 4.99 points higher BV than Kim, that's about the value of an extra Triple Loop. Looking at the spins and step sequence, while they all had the same levels on non-jump elements, Ando also racked up an extra 0.5 BV for making her Flying spin a flying change foot combination spin, which in my experience, I notice that almost only Japanese skaters do that in their LP. Very few other skaters take the time to maximize the value of their spins, which is exactly what Kim did as well. She could have gone the same route and upgrade / maximize the value of her Flying Spin. So why didn't she? It's not as if she is incapable of doing that.

#1) You definitely are less experienced than you'd like to think because Ando did not "upgrade" her flying spin. A spin in one position is REQUIRED and it usually manifests itself in the form of a Flying Spin, Change-of-Foot spin, or Flying Change-of-Foot spin (each type has the same base value). Notice how Ando in fact performed a Flying Sit Spin.

#2) What Yu-Na COULD have done to maximize her spin points was to change the Layback spin into a Change-of-Foot Combination spin (+.8 base value) and turn the Flying Sit into a Flying Camel (+.2 base value). On side note, I specifically suggested these things because I thought they would not only be better choreographically (Yu-Na's Level 4 flying camel is much more attractive than her Level 4 flying sit and ditto for the potential Change-of-Foot Combination spins she could do in comparison to the Layback) but of course also earn more technical points.

My suggestions were overruled because the powers that be with regards to Team Yu-Na thought they knew better. No hard feelings but, yeah...you guys didn't. If you had put the Flying Camel over the Flying Sit in the SP as well, this added base value alone would have put Yu-Na within .09 points of the World Title after the way the competition was judged...and since those spins would have been better-looking, you HAVE to think between the extra GOE and/or PCS that would have resulted from their superiority she would have earned at least an extra one-tenth of a point as well...giving her the World title.

So Ando's "5 Triple Program" still adds up to a good 4.49 points in difference, which is a little more than the value of a Triple Salchow. Hence, in reality, we can qualify by saying that Ando's 5 Triple Program really is a 6 Triple program and change vs. that of Kim's. Even if we accept your claim that Kim's GOE is better overall, clearly the panel also took that into account because after the GOE is considered, Ando's lead in TES shrank below the difference in the base value.

The judges did not assess the GOE of the performances correctly. Yu-Na's Lutz passes were each worth +1 more GOE than Ando's. Her 3-jump combo was worth +1 more GOE than Ando's. Ando's 3Loop should have received 0 GOE (it was barely rotated, you can see the skid on the landing) and her 2Axel+2Toe should have received -2 GOE for the sideways, barely-rotated 2Axel she executed and the stepout on the 2Toe portion. Ando's 3Toe did deserve half a point more in +GOE compared to Yu-Na's 1F, though. All in all, that puts Yu-Na ahead of Miki by 2.4 points in the comparative execution of their jumps. Yu-Na deserved an extra half point over Miki for her footwork sequence because of having superior edge quality and going with the music better. She deserved an extra point over Miki for her spiral sequence because it was faster, most definitely went with the music better, and was more difficult. That puts Yu-Na ahead of Miki by a total of 3.9 points in GOE for their performances. Hey, guess what, that means Miki is only ahead of Yu-Na in technical merit by .59 points. And considering I feel Yu-Na should have been ahead of Miki in PCS by 6 points, that puts her ahead by some way in the LP.

As for the other ladies you mentioned, Kostner's 5 Triple Program had zero Triple Lutz whereas Ando has two. It's self-explanatory as to why Kostner's "5 Triple Program" is going to be very unequal vs. that of Ando's, again referring back to the wide range posted above.

Kostner's jumps were better quality overall than Miki's. The 3Flip and 3Sal were out of this World and deserved more +GOE than Miki's Lutzes. Her 2Axel passes were better than Miki's, which makes up for Miki having a better 3Loop and +GOE on her 3Toe in comparison to Kostner's 1Lo+2Toe pass. That still puts Miki ahead overall because of her base value but Kostner had FAR better footwork, a better spiral, and slightly better spins (the Flying Camel vs. the Flying Sit). All in all that puts them pretty much even in tech merit and I would have Kostner even further ahead of Ando in PCS than I did with Yu-Na. Again, very easy to see why Kostner was superior. If you actually judge the programs and performances.

Czisny had a bad fall plus an edge call and her step sequence is graded as Level 2 only. Given how much you have advocated that Chan wasn't penalized enough for his error on his jump, which was only a step out, yet you claimed his negative GOE should be the double of what he actually received (and so that our readers know the number, it would add up to a wopping -3.18 for only a step out) - yet somehow you think Czisny splashing on the ice on a Triple shouldn't be serious enough to place behind Ando who didn't fall? Using your own standard that you suggested in the Men's LP thread, we should also double Czisny's negative GOE: -3.1 X 2 = -6.2 That's in addition to the edge call on her Triple Flip. So how do you justify that Czisny should be placed above Ando with your own customized deductions - not to mention, all things considered, Czisny's total BV is still below that of Ando before GOE?

#1) How I want CoP to be graded on the tech mark is not the system that was in place here. I can of course use GOE's as a judge to put the result however I want it, but I ethically will not venture very far from the actuality of the GOE I feel every element deserved. The only exception to this is a case like Nobunari Oda, where he was unfairly discredited for a perfectly excellent 3Axel+3Toe combination that should have been graded as a 3Axel+2Toe or at least a solo 3Axel (the FAIR result of what should happen when a skater Zayaks ). I would have thus boosted up the +GOE of his other jumping passes to compensate, as he clearly deserved that for the jumping prowess he displayed in his performance.

#2) I would have given Czisny the -3 GOE for the fall and the extra 1 point deduction. I would have given her second Triple Lutz a -1 GOE. Every other jump in her program I would have given 0 GOE. She did not deserve -GOE for her Triple Flip as the edge violation was close to non-existent and the jump had good flow. This gives her a total of -3.8 points from the base value of her jump layout, in comparison to the +1.8 points I'd give Miki for her jumping efforts. Miki also had a higher BV in her jump layout of about .7 -- all in all, that puts Miki ahead of Alissa by 6.3 points with her jumping. However, Alissa should have been a point ahead of Miki between their Footwork/Spiral Sequences. She should have been 3.3 points ahead with her spins. Which means that Miki ends up with 2 points total over Alissa for the technical score. I believe Alissa should have been about 5 points ahead of Miki in PCS, giving her a lead in the LP and putting her slightly head overall after the scores I would have given each of them in the SP.

You failed.

[sorcerer]

Miki won't retire and will take in all the criticism and improve herself.

Anyway, as a big Miki fan I am wrinting here my BIG CONGRATULATIONS for her !

[dlgpffps]

Oh, random thought, but has anyone noticed that Mao's OTP the year after she becomes World Champ? 08 Gold, 09 OTP, 10 Gold, 11 OTP. Maybe another World title's coming up?