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Thread: Ice Dance - FD

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Fine. Then how about offering your views on their appearance as opinion instead of as fact?
    Then you have to first be able to show any comments re: their appearance have been construed as facts as opposed to an opinion.

    Good luck with that.

  2. #302
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Maybe it's just me as I tend to focus on the technical aspect when I watch skating - from a technical standpoint, you can't help but admire how good the Shibs are. Difficult, high standard but performed with ease and smoothness, to make their composition look effortless is quite an achievement yet they are so young. I have said before quite frankly that their lack of maturity is an issue and that they are not as good looking as many of the super good looking teams ahead of them in this model world of Ice Dance. That said, from a technical standpoint, can't take anything away from what the Shibs have achieved technically. Personally, I would hand the overall Bronze medal to Weaver/Poje on the basis of SD + FD combined. Though, I don't have an issue that the panel collectively came to a different conclusion because I have no doubt it is fair and rooted in reasonable rationale.
    The bolded line is stated as fact, not opinion ("they are not as good-looking as many..."). Above it, your view of how good they are as skaters is stated as opinion, not fact ("Maybe it's just me..."). Below it, the statement re: handing the bronze medal to W/P is stated as opinion, not fact ("Personally, I would..."). You seem to be able to distinguish between opinion and fact quite well, when you want to.

  3. #303
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Alex and Maia are the Fred and Adele Astaire of ice dance!

  4. #304
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I have to say this was by dream podium. So happy for all the medalists. I think they all must be pretty happy too. Voir did amazingly well espcially considering this was their first competition. Marlie were skating to win this all year and I am so happy they finally got the recognition. That tango is just beyond words. For the Shibs to medal at their very first worlds is amazing (and to think they were off the podium at junior worlds last year)!

    Everyone skated their best and the best team one. As it should be.

  5. #305
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Congratulations to Davis and White. I also have to add a huge congrats to my team favorites - Virtue and Moir for a job well done after such a long struggle with their injury issues. It was a very close call as far as the outcome. I am looking forward to seeing Virtue and Moir at Stars on Ice in a couple of weeks here in Vancouver. I also would like to say well done to Vanessa Crone and Paul Poirier and Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje. I still love Vanessa and Paul's free dance program the best.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    It's funny how you put it this way. The irony is Pechalat/Bourzat were pretty much assured of the Bronze after the SD but due to the freak fall, the medal that was due to be given to France has now disappeared in Russia.

    ah, the sweet irony of it all

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladskater View Post
    Congratulations to Davis and White. I also have to add a huge congrats to my team favorites - Virtue and Moir for a job well done after such a long struggle with their injury issues. It was a very close call as far as the outcome.
    It wasn't close at all. A four point difference in the FD score is HUGE. D/W were ahead in the TES by 2.5 points and in the PCS by 1.5 points.

    V/M were very good, as usual, but they didn't have the time to bring the difficulty level up to D/W's, they had to deal with Tessa's initial limitations, and they didn't have input to hone and improve their interpretation. That they scored as high as they did was amazing.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    V/M and D/W are deservedly unreachable over the rest of the field at this point in time. You yourself just hit upon why the Russians did not do well - their skating is a poor rehash of former eras. P/B would have easily won the Bronze had they not gone SPLAT. I fully expect them to be able to claim a Bronze next year if they keep their level of skating in tact and don't screw up like that.

    If Europe wants to challenge V/M and D/W then they need to produce a team that had the creativity and ability of Delobel/Shoenfelder.
    Hey Zuranthium, did I question Canton teams wins? I just believe that 10s and 11s are unnecessary. And I do think that the old amazing Russian school is dead, which is not necessarily bad thing. Something new and different and better will come out of that. If not now, later.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    The bolded line is stated as fact, not opinion ("they are not as good-looking as many..."). Above it, your view of how good they are as skaters is stated as opinion, not fact ("Maybe it's just me..."). Below it, the statement re: handing the bronze medal to W/P is stated as opinion, not fact ("Personally, I would..."). You seem to be able to distinguish between opinion and fact quite well, when you want to.
    That was an opinion as well. In English, when someone says: "They are really nice / hot / awful / cute / evil", that person is stating an opinion. My sentence was "They are not as good looking as..." I was making a comparison from my viewpoint. Somehow, you see that as a fact even though I was obviously offering my viewpoint. It would be a fact if I had said: "It is a well known fact that they are not as..." Whether you choose to read my statement as anything more than the point of view of an individual, it is your choice alone. Frankly if you choose to take my words as gospel, I can't help you either.

    Did you see me go telling anyone who disagreed with me on this that they are wrong? Nope. Many people in this thread and on the other ice dance thread which this was originally discussed, had offered their contrary or concurring viewpoints and felt that the Shibutani are either cute, not mature yet or well, we shall see. Others were sort of in-between (e.g. Cara) and then there were others who were also convinced that the Shibs are just too young (e.g. Lucky Star). I remember what I wrote very well and feel free to dig that thread out because I certainly didn't try to impose my viewpoint on anyone or construed it as fact. However, I have been in this sport long enough to know what works and what doesn't. What I said is not a fact to be sure; however I have my reasons for formulating such an opinion, which I explained in that thread so will not repeat them here.

    On the other hand, you were definitely trying to impose your viewpoint on the Shibs' look and essentially telling people who think otherwise that they are wrong. Sorry, it seems pretty clear to me that you were the one who tried to construe an opinion as a fact, not the other way around.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 04-30-2011 at 09:04 PM.

  10. #310
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    BEFORE WATCHING....

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

    That was my response when I saw the ice dance results. I mean, how can it not be?

    Not Davis/White beating Virtue/Moir. We all knew it was coming. Davis/White were due. The judges were keeping them so close to avoid what happened last season and the season prior (D/W beating them on the FD but too far behind to overtake the Canadians), and really, if V/M's FD was as devilishly tricky as we all thought it would be, the chances of them nailing it weren't high (and if it wasn’t, D/W would win because we had already seen how hard their dance was).

    Additionally, the way V/M changed the media tune a little: they were talking about skating for themselves, playing up the fact that they weren't sure they were even going to be here. These things rather tell you a different story, one where the champions don't know if they can win. Essentially, V/M needed to skate a blinder with Davis/White making a major error. Barring that, the title was D/W's. I was fairly sanguine about that, to be honest. I have to admit D/W's hardcore fans have really turned me off the team (not their fault, of course), but I can't deny just how much I admire D/W for the amount of work they did this year. The fact is, I'm more depressed that V/M had so little competition experience this season, and this season was LONG. I’m glad it’s over, to be honest

    So, it took me a while to notice that third place was not Pechelat/Bourzat, but the Shibutanis. Now, I like the Shibutanis as potential. As medalists.... well, not quite so much. Again, this is not having seen the competition. And the overall results were wierd. Weaver/Poje moving up with their FD? That didn't happen anywhere this season. So suffice to say, outside the top two, this competition did not go as expected.....

    ---- Now, onto the programs, in order of my watching them----

    Virtue/Moir: Oh, how awesome this was and could have been. Lets focus on how good it was: they were smoking hot. The opening was appropriately playful, but it's when it kicked into "Temptation" that the smolder really started to sizzle. Goodness me, basically, watching them was practically voyeuristic (he says after watching it.... three/four/five times). Those lifts were gorgeous. The step sequences mostly sublime. Their strength in creating sublime on ice images never wavers. But there were infelicities. The exits from a couple of the lifts seemed a little more labourious. A couple of times the step sequences didn't have quite the flow I would've liked. And the ending was a little tired. Basically, I left this program loving it, but thinking - yeah D/W could deserve to win. But Tessa? Every inch of the glamorous sex goddess this dance needs (did not see that coming). That straight line lift where Tessa's upside down and Scott strokes himself.... Dear god. How is that allowed in an onstensibly G-rated sport? There’s a reason everyone thinks they lie when they say they aren’t in a romantic/etc relationship. They could call this program: “We’re gonna tease you some more, just differently”

    Davis/White: They make it look.... well, really hard. They wanted it so much. But where’s the sex? The passion? They had speed and drama in spades, but there was no moment where I thought they wanted each other (or had wanted each other in the past, or could wanted each other in the future). There was so much to like in this dance (it does look a lot harder than V/M’s, particularly the linking footwork), but in the end, all I really wanted was Virtue/Moir to beat them. Good for them , good for their fans, good for US ice dance. I can’t begrudge them this win, they were technically stunning, and frankly, I figured Meryl might go postal if she didn’t win (So intense that one). But I’m never going to watch this program again.

    Weaver/Poje: Tune before watching: I hate this program. Tune after: were they robbed? How could they be? It’s not as if Crone/Poirier beat them (usually when people get angry about them being robbed). Have they made improvements to the choreography? Wait what? No way, seriously? The lifts are spread out more effectively, it flows better, their presentation has improved. This is without a doubt the best they’ve skated this program this season. Whoa.

    Shibutanis:..... Yeah, they might have been a little. The difference between the two dances isn’t as much as the difference between their SDs. They’re more refined, and apparently have great speed (I don’t see it, personally, certainly not compared to the actual top teams), but it’s not as if their elements are perfect (the second step sequence in particular). But they have joy and lightness. I fully anticipate getting bored of them soon if they don’t grow up, though.

    Crone/Poirier: .... DO not give them easy Grand Prix events next season. Particularly not Skate Canada. Capiche? Okay. I think this dance is easily the most intellectually ambitious dance of the year. But clearly, it didn’t work for some people. It never really improved, and they made some changes that take away from it. I actually think that Poirier’s expressive capabilities are quite high, as are Vanessa’s, but something’s amiss in this performance. It’s disappointing.

    Pechalat/Bourzat: ... easily the most heartbreaking moment of the tournament. Firstly, love the audience reaction. They’ve been particularly silent for non-Russian skaters, so it was nice to see them encouraging P/B. Onwards, the fall itself didn’t kill them. It decimated their level on the step sequence, and that’s what killed them. They still had third highest PCS (a joke, but moving on), and the fall didn’t dislocate the program (which I find way too coy and about as Chaplineseque as D/W’s tango is sexy, but whatever). It’s disappointing to see a team that have worked so hard get derailed like that, though.

    Cappellini/Lannotte: Disappointing. That first rotational lift is heaven. The music cuts are not. The program construction isn’t great. But they are simply beautiful skaters.

    Ilynikh/Katsalpov: Prediction one: They will be coached by Shpilband/Zoueva by 2012/2013 season. If so, they win in Sochi. If not, they don’t. The biggest flaw this team has is their lack of “oneness”. They have got stroking to die for (never realized how fast they were until now), but Zhulin apparently doesn’t know how to give them lifts that they won’t die on. Seriously, at Euros and now that lift looked terrifying. Also, for all her expressive capabilities, she spends 90% of this program with that smile. It doesn’t feel like smile-y music. Doesn’t make sense given how fierce she looks overall. Also, she nearly swan dives and decapitates him on the combination lift, and some judges still give I/K +1? Seriously? It’s telling that even with the generous scoring, teams that shouldn’t be close to them ability wise, are.

    Bobrova/Soloviev: Oh goodness me, that first lift is to beautiful. Again, lines, stroking- amazing. God, I could watch the Russian teams stroke for hours. But that first mistake really takes you out of the spell they work to create and it never really recovers. I enjoyed this dance earlier this season, but it was a little disappointing now.

    Chock/Zuerlein: That Zoueva hit upon Greg’s love of character makes her a genius given how bland he’s been in the past. They needed a little bit more oomph, though. Still, by far the best FD from the American contingent (choreography wise), their presentation is bold without being silly (see the Germans) and I think it’s a great program for them. Probably the most underscored

    My FD Rankings

    1. Davis/White (winning TES and components for Transitons, Skating Skills and Choregraphy)
    2. Virtue/Moir (second on both, winning Performance and Intepretation)
    3. Shibutanis (greater GOES than W/P allowing for TES win, PCS win as well)
    4. Weaver/Poje
    5. Chock/Zuerlein
    6. Bobrova/Soloviev
    7. Pechelat/Bourzat
    8. Crone/Poirier (and you know I want to rank them above P/B, but alas, I cannot)
    9. Cappellini/Lanotte
    10. Ilnyikh/Katsalpov

    So not much different. Also, I’ve gotta ask – if there was no Canadian judge on the panel, who gave V/M four 10s and one 9.75? Because I adore them, and this program could’ve been that high, but no mileage means that it wasn’t. That said, love the fact that V/M scored nine “10s” in total to D/W’s eight (13 if you count SD).

    Also, I have to mention I was totally wrong about qualifying: both Takahiko and W/P nailed qualifying, then went on to give the best performance of their career.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 04-30-2011 at 10:49 PM.

  11. #311
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    I came back to offer further thoughts, having wrapped my head around things a bit (and watched over a few times )..and here I find Pogue has beaten me to it , and taken the words out of my mouth a few times .

    I love Pogue's assessment of V/M's program. (What a pity they couldn't have competed it more )Boy! if they do a show version for the last half of CSOI ,I hope they get it on camera ( even if they can't show it 'til after midnight ), because I don't think the camera angle was particularly good for them, here.( There were some very nice samba details that were partially blocked )... Can we hear it for the way Scott simply devours her with his eyes ? The way he nuzzles /nibbles her on the shoulder ? The long, slow lift where she slithers across his anatomy ? The fact that she apparently has no bones in her torso ?..Ay! Ay! Ay!

    My dogs await.

  12. #312
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    What is wrong with C/P is that they do not relate to one another at all. The other teams all interact with one another and create an illusion at least of "oneness". It's as if C/P are strangers who met by chance on the middle of a dance floor, danced together for awhile but neither one is at all interested in the other. Detachment and indifference (that's what it looks like) is not most people's idea of what a dance couple should project. They got the lowest PCS scores of the top 10 teams, IMO deservedly.

    I also hated both the SD (hate "Fallin'") and the OD (horrid version of "Rigby") musically. I wish they would pick better music selections. I haven't liked their choices at all for the past two years.

  13. #313
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Wallylutz, if it causes you so much angst to have one post challenged, imagine how a 16-year-old kid feels to have a skating expert announce judgmentally online that she's not good-looking compared to other skaters.

    Posters here question and challenge each other all the time in order to get closer to the truth of various matters. Not everything is opinion and even opinions have to have some rational basis or they're nothing but prejudice and can't even be discussed. You haven't offered any reasons to change my belief that the Shibs are objectively extremely attractive. I gave my reasons in my first post.

    Anyway - I'm sure I've made my point - enough said.

  14. #314
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    I found myself riveted from the opening seconds of Tessa and Scott's program to the end when I needed to exhale and breath normally again. They are sexy, they are hot, they are totally connected, they are fast yet in synch, they are technically impressive but that is almost secondary. It is easy to forget it's a competition, but a performance that draws you in with or without your permission. Rewatching them on TV, I noticed and appreciated the way they used their lifts as lead ins to new tempo and music. With that straight line lift where Scott was presenting an upside down Tessa, she decended on the ice to the slow music segment. Such a smooth transition. Then, when he swang her around fast in the circular lift, it was natural for them to keep up with the new segment of fast paced music by the time she was set down back on ice. I really like lifts used this way, smooth and refreshing. I also noticed a little waning of energy later in the program.

    After Vior, it was hard to fanthom how they could be surpassed. Then Marlie came on and vowed me with their energy and never ending difficult tricks. But they seemed to be working hard, instead of sharing a special connection all their own like Tessa and Scott. Rewatching them on TV got me to appreciate their technical prowess even more, but I was not more stirred or engrossed. Still no heat.

    I agree Marlie won. But it's Tessa and Scott I want to watch again. I hope they keep and develop this FD for the next season. It deserved to grow and be watched more. And I deserve to watch it more as it grows.

  15. #315
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    Yep, SF - on the money. I also really want to give Tessa props. She's really amplified her expression with this program. CBC version, w/ Scott and Tracy

    The Shibs are quite attractive. Alex is cute and Maia is a young beauty. Marina has amplified this with simple, uncluttered programs.

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