Ice Dance - FD

[wallylutz]

Oh, I see. Because the US now has two top seeded teams, the Shibs are in a unique position to having to state two preferences, as it is almost certain D/W would skate at the home event.

In that case, I am assuming that there will be a furious behind the door negotiation to avoid having the Shibs skate at two hostile events (Russia & France).

That may not be possible because Shibs will likely end up getting whatever D/W and V/M didn't pick. My understanding is that the preference for top seeds are honored with the World Champions get to pick 1st, followed by the Vice-World Champions, then the World Bronze Medalists. With D/W and V/M each getting Skate America and Skate Canada respectively, D/W will pick from one of the 4 remaining countries, then V/M will choose from one of the remaining 3 countries. So effectively S/S may have just to take whatever the other two didn't choose. Then again, they are friends so with Shibs being the youngest, I imagine the other two teams will likely be more accommodating if Shibs want something really badly. The Top 2 are a lot less susceptible to hostile territory, they can take more hits in France or Russia than Shibs can withstand, so they may volunteer to take up one of the two European spots, leaving Shibs with both CoC and NHK. This is just my speculation of course.

It's sounds rather unfair that the Shibs are unduly targetted by Russia & France. It's not their fault that the Shibs got the Bronze medals; they simply skated their best. On the other hand, P/B had a freak accident, and the Russians, in spite of the home court advantage, their did not bring it.

It's just the way this is going to work. Though all the Shibs had to do is get their training mates to volunteer to go to Europe. It wouldn't be hard to convince V/M to go to France, Tessa loves Paris & fashion and has friends there. Not sure how D/W feels about Russia.

I kind of feel protective of the Shibs. They are so young and having to become a target of hostility But oh well, this is the reality.

Someone suggested earlier that D/W will voluntarily exchange Skate America with Shibs but I don't know how true that is.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh, I see. Because the US now has two top seeded teams, the Shibs are in a unique position to having to state two preferences, as it is almost certain D/W would skate at the home event.

In that case, I am assuming that there will be furious behind the door negotiations to avoid having the Shibs skate at two hostile events (Russia & France).

It's sounds rather unfair that the Shibs are unduly targetted by Russia & France. It's not their fault that the Shibs got the Bronze medals; they simply skated their best. On the other hand, P/B had a freak accident, and the Russians, in spite of the home court advantage, did not bring it.

I kind of feel protective of the Shibs. They are so young and having to become a target of hostility But oh well, this is the reality.

True, but concurrently, the third place is always going to be targeted a little. SC chose the third place for pairs (Kavaguti/Smirnov) and ladies (Laura Lepisto) last season, for example. Lepisto is particularly analgous because the scores for 3rd through 6th were so tight and is definitely beatable. No one thinks that the Shibs would've won bronze had P/B been clean, but them's the breaks.

The real downside to being targeted by France and Russia is that they won't get any rest between. Hopefully they get one from that group and one from the two Asian held GPs.

[wallylutz]

Samuelson/Bates

If I remember correctly, there is a provision for previously ranked skater in case they have to sit out a year due to injuries and other reasons out of their control. This is how Delobel/Scheonfelder were invited to two GP events after missing the 2009 Worlds. Does it only apply to Top 6 ranked skaters / teams, I can't remember exactly? I was thinking that this provision may be applicalbe to S/B.

[chuckm]

It really doesn't matter where D/W and V/M skate, because they are the only true competition for each other, and they cannot meet during the GP. They all train together, so it's entirely possible for D/W and V/M to ask S/S where they would rather go, and then take the "hostile" slots. Historically, V/M have chosen SC and the last GP event (this year it's CoR); D/W could pick SA and TEB. That would leave CoC and NHK for the Shibutanis.

[chuckm]

If I remember correctly, there is a provision for previously ranked skater in case they have to sit out a year due to injuries and other reasons out of their control. This is how Delobel/Scheonfelder were invited to two GP events after missing the 2009 Worlds. Does it only apply to Top 6 ranked skaters / teams, I can't remember exactly? I was thinking that this provision may be applicalbe to S/B.

No. DelShoes were the 2008 World Champions, and they also participated in the 2008-2009 GP and were the GPF Champions. So they would have been on the Seasons Best list because of their GP events. However, they weren't SEEDED for the 2009-2010 GP, they were invitees, not seeds, and they withdrew anyway because she was preggers.

S/B didn't skate at all this past season and are not on the SB list. They are currently #17 on the World Ranking list, but may slip down after the oldest data is purged sometime this month. However, not being on the SB list will probably keep them from doing any GP event except SA. But perhaps USFS will assign them to a few Senior "B" events.

[CARA]

True, but concurrently, the third place is always going to be targeted a little. SC chose the third place for pairs (Kavaguti/Smirnov) and ladies (Laura Lepisto) last season, for example. Lepisto is particularly analgous because the scores for 3rd through 6th were so tight and is definitely beatable. No one thinks that the Shibs would've won bronze had P/B been clean, but them's the breaks.

The real downside to being targeted by France and Russia is that they won't get any rest between. Hopefully they get one from that group and one from the two Asian held GPs.

Right. It is highly unlikely that the Shibs end up with two "hostile" assignments. If it happens, boy, I can already foresee all those "conspiracists" coming out of woodwork and complain.

I'm sure neither Russia nor France want "sympathetic votes" for the "oh-so-poor-youngest-and-innocent-Shibs-being-the-victim-of-unfair-hostility!"

I can foresee Russia & France negotiating to be certain that the Shibs end up with "just one" hostile assignment. You don't want a conspiracy to be too obvious.

[NorthernDancers]

Ok. I'm REALLY late to the game here. Thanks to the wonderful coverage by CBC Bold, I finally got to watch both ice dance events. My thoughts on the top 10:

Davis/White: deserved to be a little lower in the SD, but win the FD. I think at this competition they definitely deserved to win. I do think they will be hard pressed to repeat that achievement going forward. They are so good - technique, style, choice of music - but when I compare with Virtue/Moir, they are missing a certain musicality, oneness, smoothnesss that Virtue/Moir have. I'm not sure that can be trained. It's intangible, natural talent.

Virtue/Moir: what can I say? They are simply exquisite. Unique in the world. The SD was sublime. The FD maybe wasn't quite the same perfection because this is the first competition for the program, but I am just stunned at the complexity, musicality and level of quality. And a huge departure from last year's program. They were not the best this week, but I don't know any other team that could recover from serious surgery in both legs and still compete like that 6 months later. I really hope they continue to compete because I am excited to see how this still very young team will grow and develop and leave their mark on the sport. They really are once-in-a-generation team, right up there with the previous all-time greats.

Shibutani's: I probably would have had them lower in the SD, behind Weaver/Poje. They are a tremendously good team with clean feet, speed, musicality, and all the great stuff it takes to succeed in this sport. But all of this is very much still in development, and I think they were over-scored. I'd have them switch places with Weaver/Poje for this time.

Pechalat/Bourzat: My heart aches for this team. They really deserved to be 3rd, except for the errors in the FD. They are such good skaters, have worked really hard all season, and I feel really bad for them. Generally, I've always liked this team. They are creative and interesting, and I hope they stick around and we see a lot more of them.

Weaver/Poje: At LAST! I think they finally were mostly rewarded for their work. The SD is one of the best in the world this year, and I think they should have been 4th after the SD. They should have won the bronze after the unfortunate fall by the French. They put together 3 wonderful programs, and were able to skate clean. As predicted in other threads, when they skate clean they are the 2nd place Canadian team. It's been a long time coming for them, and perhaps some vindication for them after Nationals, when many felt they should have won the title. I hope this great finish will give them confidence going into next season, which will then result in cleaner programs all year. I also hope they choose music for both the SD and FD next year that showcases their strengths. I was not a great fan of their disjointed, somewhat tacky FD choice this year. These 2 have a great opportunity to have a very spicy, hot latin number for the SD, and perhaps something romantic and flowing and classic for the FD next year, along the lines of the SD this year.

Bobrova/Soloviev: I think they are the number 1 Russian team right now. I love their style and look. They are going to have to step up their game if they want to retain that position, since the other Russian teams are coming up quickly, including a couple of them at Junior.

Ilinykh/Katsalapov: I think they are over-rated today, but do have lots of potential. She is absolutely gorgeous and a fabulous skater. He needs a lot more work yet. The SD was much better than the FD. The problem with SD, in my opinion, is that the music was way too big for the waltz. It was missing the light, flowing nature of the other top dances. They are a little more like Davis/White, and should take their cue from them to tone down the drama just a little for something like this SD. Davis/White used music from an opera, but it was not quite as jarring. In the FD, it just wasn't that good, and wasn't nearly as difficult as the others. Like someone else stated further up-thread, they need new coaches, different music, and re-packaging - and focus and training away from the adoring public. They are going to have to do these things, since there are a number of really good Russian teams, including at Junior, and they will need to do much better than this year if they want to be the top Russian team.

Cappellini/Lanotte: So glad to see them back, after not a very good year for them. I hope they have some stability, health and consistency next year, since I really like this team. Like Weaver/Poje, they will be able to bring the "hot and spicy" factor to the SD. It was interesting to hear Paul MacIntosh interviewed with PJ on Bold. If you look at Virtue/Moir and Weaver/Poje, they both have the solid technique, posture and soft knee action, which produces great edges and quality skating. Most people would agree they learned that from Paul. I recall Tracy Wilson has commented on this in the past. Perhaps Cappellini/Lanotte and perhaps a couple of other teams (like the Spanish team, for example) would benefit from spending a year or two training with him.

Chock/Zuerlein: Their FD is so much fun. I noticed he toned down the makeup and hair for this competition. No matter. It was still very enjoyable. Like Canada, the US has an embarrassment of riches in ice dance. With Samuelson/Bates back in action next season, will Chock/Zuerlein find their way to the world stage? I'm thinking they will have to wait in line, not unlike Paul/Islam in Canada. (I share the opinion above that perhaps Paul/Islam are little over-rated. Time will tell how they develop. If they want to grow and solidify their position as the "next in line", I think the most important thing for them is to find their own unique style. Although Paul does look very similar to Virtue, Paul/Islam need to find their own unique niche. In Canada, we have 3 wonderful teams that are all very different and very good. Islam/Paul need to leave their own mark in order to be taken seriously over the long-term. In a crowded US field, I think Chock/Zuerlein do this very well.)

Crone/Poirier: Well. What were they thinking putting Vanessa in that horrible dress again, and putting her hair up? They finally had it right at Nationals, and then they bring back this horrible look in the SD? What I love about this team is their williingness to try new things and be daring. Their opening lift in the SD is spectacular, and I've always liked their FD. Unfortunately, with the small mistake on the twizzle, a bit of tentativeness, and lack of connection, they were dumped down to 10th. They do a lot of great things technically. However, I do agree with others that they are missing connection and packaging. They are so very talented, and I agree with Paul MacIntosh's comment that they could change the sport. But to do that, they need to fix some core things that many others on this and other threads have noted. I think Krylova/Carmelengo would be a great choice for them for the next year. They need to not get stuck, but grow and improve, and a coaching change is I think the best idea for them. (And a side note, thinking of stagnation, looking at the #5 team in Canada, I think they should go to BC to Wing/Lowe. I'd love to see what they would do with Ralph/Hill.)

[Kinga]

They did. Can't find source now. But now they may reconsider? They (P/B) certainly not staying with Zhulin for various reasons.

I am curious, why dont they stay with Zhulin? They moved up in rankings when being with him. Any facts on that?

[kensal]

I am curious, why dont they stay with Zhulin? They moved up in rankings when being with him. Any facts on that?

The decision to leave Zhulin was made long time. There could be many reasons, one of which is that Zhulin is focusing on Russian skaters. I suspect with the loss this year, they will be working hard to get on the podium next year in France.

Also, the latest rumor is that Russian Federation is not happy with Zhulin's work and I/K may also soon be leaving to different coach.

[Mathman]

Thanks for your impressions, Northern Dancers.

[dwiggin3]

I really like this dance for V/M - I hope they keep it for next year. Oh, I just love it!

[ImaginaryPogue]

The decision to leave Zhulin was made long time. There could be many reasons, one of which is that Zhulin is focusing on Russian skaters. I suspect with the loss this year, they will be working hard to get on the podium next year in France.

Also, the latest rumor is that Russian Federation is not happy with Zhulin's work and I/K may also soon be leaving to different coach.

Yeah, I fully expected that development with I/K.

[alithia]

I have a hunch they will be send to Linichuk.It was said last year that Linichuk asked or the fed proposed to her B/S.But they don't leave Kustarova,so maybe it's I/K that are gonna be sent there..

[Lucky Star]

I have a hunch they will be send to Linichuk.It was said last year that Linichuk asked or the fed proposed to her B/S.But they don't leave Kustarova,so maybe it's I/K that are gonna be sent there..

Linichuk already has Pushkash/Guerreiro. And I/K, especially Nikita, won't leave Zhulin

[dorispulaski]

I've watched all the FD's, but not all the SD's so far, although I have seen V&M's and D&W's (and want to watch them both again).

I thought perhaps it would be interesting to look at the protocols a bit.

The most surprising thing in the SD is that D&W outscored V&M in the Golden Waltz. What's shocking about this is that D&W haven't outscored V&M in a CD in a very long time; maybe never, and they were clearly better in the Golden here. In fact, D&W put on a clinic on how to score well in the Pattern Dance in the new Short Dance / COP system, which is wildly different than last year's system. In fact, D&W would have won the SD too, if Charlie hadn't been slow to grab his foot in the twizzles. .

Next year, V&M will be more used to the system changes, and they will probably beat D&W again, but it was interesting to see how it worked out this year for me.

SHORT DANCE

D& W Step / V&M Step 10.14 / 10.43 (both level 4)

D&W GW1 / V&M GW1 7.00 / 7.00 (Level 4 for both)
D&W GW2 / V&M GW2 9.00 (Level 4) / 7.93 (Level 3)

Total GW ( 16.00 / 14.93 )

D&W Twizzles / V&M Twizzles 5.93 (Level 3) / 7.29 (Level 4)
D&W Lift / V&M Lift 5.29 / 5.29

Total Tech 37.36 / 37.94


D&W PCS / V&M PCS

Skating Skills 9.04 / 9.00
Linking Footwork & Movement 8.93 / 8.82
Performance 9.14 / 9.18
Choreography 9.14 / 9.18
Interpretation / Timing 9.21 / 9.21

Total 36.40 / 36.35

In the free dance, D&W outscored V&M in every technical category and either outscored or tied in every PCS category. The high point for V&M was having the best lift. For those wondering why that happened, no, the Americans did not buy the bloc or something. For one thing, the one thing in the past that the US fed has cared much about is where the US ladies finish, and every once in a while they appear to care about the men. Pairs? Dance? Not much.

I loved the beginning & end of V&M's FD! It's so nice to see them doing a really joyous party style dance, and it's a nice change from their programs of the last several years IMO! For some reason, my favorite bit was when they're standing still doing that Hip Hip Chin Chin pair of little moves, so sharp. However, the only element in that section was those cool circular twizzles, so most of that great stuff only counted toward choreo & interp. For me, the Temptation part seemed to drag a bit, though. And the footwork and spin were rather generic, as they just didn't have the training time to make them more special.

Their FD was a great tune-up for next year's SD, though.

FREE DANCE
D&W Lifts/ V&M Lifts
5.43 / 5.5
5.14 / 5.21
5.21 / 5.21
5.36 / 5.07

Net 21.14 / 20.99

D&W Steps / V&M Steps
10.14 (level 4) / 8.5 (level 3)
8.64 (level 3) / 8.36 (level 3)

net 18.78 / 16.86

D&W Twizzles / V&M Twizzles
7.5 / 7.36

D&W Spin / V&M Spin 6.36 / 6.00

D&W Tech/ V&M Tech 53.78 / 51.21

D&W PCS / V&M PCS
Skating Skills 9.57 / 9.32
Linking Footwork/ Movement 9.54 / 9.04
Performance 9.68 / 9.54
Choreography 9.75 / 9.64
Interpretation / Timing 9.64 / 9.64

Total 57.73 / 56.29

The most surprising (and gratifying) placing for me were Weaver and Poje. How appropriate that their SD is partially to At Last!!!! I enjoyed so much seeing them skate both their programs the very best they could! And their SD is really my favorite of the season.

The second nice surprise was the improvement of Chock and Zuerlein. I like both their SD and FD programs, but they were rather sloppy at SC and at TEB (especially in the FD), so it was very nice to see them give some very nice programs. The FD was particularly clean and relaxed, and really seemed to please the Russian audience who were clapping along with the music. C&Z did a really great job of conveying a Cabaret atmosphere! I think they've really found their style. In fact, choreographically, it's my favorite FD this year.

I'm rather afraid that skating back to back with C&Z in the FD didn't help C&P who looked if anything, worse than at Skate Canada, where they won and C&Z just eked out a bronze, but only finishing 4th in the FD. But I am rather puzzled that C&P finished as low as they did. I wonder whether they had trouble adjusting their training to the different date for Worlds?