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- Thread starter SkatingAnalyst
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- Jan 15, 2010
Awarding consistency? Oh yeah, because Miki is so much more consistent than Yuna is.
Your first point is your opinion, so I won't argue with that, but to try to justify your point with the latter two is kind of ridiculous. I mean, really, would you rather her look constipated during her spirals?
Both Yuna and Michelle smile during their spirals. I think it's because they're honestly happy they're on the ice.
As for the third point, I really would like to laugh. I don't know if you think Yuna's, Sasha's, Shizuka's versions of the Ina Bauer are "simple", but I assure you they are not. They're a variation of the "classic" Ina Bauer, due to their layback position. And the Ina Bauer is not the only way to be "exquisite" or "artistic" ... With that said, Michelle has done plenty of "simple Ina Bauers" in her programs.
Sasha almost never skated a clean long program. That's why she lost out on the top spot most of the time. She was a for sure a very beautiful skater, but what is beauty when you're stumbling all over the place looking like a clumsy swan?
True, but the juvenile me who's looking for some sort of drama just wanted to respond.
:
AHAHAHAAHAHa. Totally NOT what I was expecting!
Your first point is your opinion, so I won't argue with that, but to try to justify your point with the latter two is kind of ridiculous. I mean, really, would you rather her look constipated during her spirals?
Both Yuna and Michelle smile during their spirals. I think it's because they're honestly happy they're on the ice.
As for the third point, I really would like to laugh. I don't know if you think Yuna's, Sasha's, Shizuka's versions of the Ina Bauer are "simple", but I assure you they are not. They're a variation of the "classic" Ina Bauer, due to their layback position. And the Ina Bauer is not the only way to be "exquisite" or "artistic" ... With that said, Michelle has done plenty of "simple Ina Bauers" in her programs.
Sasha almost never skated a clean long program. That's why she lost out on the top spot most of the time. She was a for sure a very beautiful skater, but what is beauty when you're stumbling all over the place looking like a clumsy swan?
What a hilarious thread
True, but the juvenile me who's looking for some sort of drama just wanted to respond.
:AHAHAHAAHAHa. Totally NOT what I was expecting!
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Awarding consistency? Oh yeah, because Miki is so much more consistent than Yuna is.
Your first point is your opinion, so I won't argue with that, but to try to justify your point with the latter two is kind of ridiculous. I mean, really, would you rather her frown during her spirals?
As for the third point, I really would like to laugh. I don't know if you think Yuna's, Sasha's, Shizuka's versions of the Ina Bauer are "simple", but I assure you they are not. They're a variation of the "classic" Ina Bauer, due to their layback position. And the Ina Bauer is not the only way to be "exquisite" or "artistic" ...
Sasha almost never skated a clean long program. That's why she lost out on the top spot most of the time. She was a for sure a very beautiful skater, but what is beauty when you're stumbling all over the place looking like a clumsy swan?
True, but the juvenile me who's looking for some sort of drama just wanted to respond.
AHAHAHAAHAHa. Totally NOT what I was expecting!
There are certain things that a skater cannot do...
Yuna cannot do 3axels, spirals like Sasha...
Michelle cannot do beautiful ina bauer, Bielleman spin and beautiful skating for GENERAL AUDIENCE.
You may disregard my opinion as Michelle hater's opinion...but I'm telling the truth from my mind.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
I could care less if you dislike Michelle or aren't a fan of hers. Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean you have to be.
I'm not even trying to "disregard" your opinion, you just have weird logic. And it seems to me that you're disregarding my opinion more than I'm disregarding yours.
No idea what point you're trying to make with this, but okay. I mean, I could just sit here and argue that Yuna's Biellmann is terrible in comparison to so and so or such and such, but ... eh.
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Sorry for you and Michelle fans...
Some people do not like me because...
I'm inflexible like Brian Orser...I cannot be negotiated...
I'm firm in what I believe...
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I think I will hijack this thread by going with its title instead of its intent.
Specifically, I want to discuss BoP's views on the trends for Men and Ladies.
This is the year after the Olympics. The first year of the new quadrennium is treated differently by different athletes. Often some veterans retire and some young talents try to seize the opportunity to step up and get noticed. In between, the current talents still in the game, take different approaches and affect the sport with their actions.
In Mens, we have a super talent who became super motivated to step up big time regardless of circusmstance, focusing on his personal goals of achievement whatever the rules of incentives, his winning chances, and what his rivals' plans and actions are. Even before his final and ultimate accomplishment of the season, even when he was falling all over during the early process of his road to success, Patrick already changed the game of Mens figure skating. His rivals are pushed and those formally and temporarily retired will have to rethink their plans.
In Ladies, it's a whole different story. Rochette, like Lysacek and Plushenko of Mens, were not in the game for at least this last year. Of the two dominating rivals, Yuna took a year off from competitions but came back just for Worlds, likely to fulfil her required duty of securing entries for Korea. Mao, the jumping queen, the one with the 3A, decided she needed to dump her old reliable tools and relearn how to jump all over again. She must have seen it as a necessity to up her ante for her continued skating career. It is admirable to me, just as Patrick was when he struggled for his goals, even though it evidently takes more than a year to accomplish what she wants to. Meanwhile, there was no one to push the Ladies figure skating, with the top 3 taking time out and the young jumping bebes threatening but not of age yet. So the almost top talents took the opportunity to step up to grab the prizes offered. Their personal successes came from gaining confidence and consistency so their level of excellence is enough to win medals without the top talents. They did not raise the bar or push anyone beyond any old standard.
I don't think it is necessary or desirable to tweak the CoP in the attempt to push the Ladies in any specific deriction. Things will change soon enough, with the return of Yuna, Mao and perhaps Joannie, and the uprising of young Japanese, Russian and even American talents, somebody, or maybe her rival as well, will likely push the Ladies forward. I would say the future looks very bright, after this lull. The next Olympic will see a deep field of very talented young Ladies.
Specifically, I want to discuss BoP's views on the trends for Men and Ladies.
This is the year after the Olympics. The first year of the new quadrennium is treated differently by different athletes. Often some veterans retire and some young talents try to seize the opportunity to step up and get noticed. In between, the current talents still in the game, take different approaches and affect the sport with their actions.
In Mens, we have a super talent who became super motivated to step up big time regardless of circusmstance, focusing on his personal goals of achievement whatever the rules of incentives, his winning chances, and what his rivals' plans and actions are. Even before his final and ultimate accomplishment of the season, even when he was falling all over during the early process of his road to success, Patrick already changed the game of Mens figure skating. His rivals are pushed and those formally and temporarily retired will have to rethink their plans.
In Ladies, it's a whole different story. Rochette, like Lysacek and Plushenko of Mens, were not in the game for at least this last year. Of the two dominating rivals, Yuna took a year off from competitions but came back just for Worlds, likely to fulfil her required duty of securing entries for Korea. Mao, the jumping queen, the one with the 3A, decided she needed to dump her old reliable tools and relearn how to jump all over again. She must have seen it as a necessity to up her ante for her continued skating career. It is admirable to me, just as Patrick was when he struggled for his goals, even though it evidently takes more than a year to accomplish what she wants to. Meanwhile, there was no one to push the Ladies figure skating, with the top 3 taking time out and the young jumping bebes threatening but not of age yet. So the almost top talents took the opportunity to step up to grab the prizes offered. Their personal successes came from gaining confidence and consistency so their level of excellence is enough to win medals without the top talents. They did not raise the bar or push anyone beyond any old standard.
I don't think it is necessary or desirable to tweak the CoP in the attempt to push the Ladies in any specific deriction. Things will change soon enough, with the return of Yuna, Mao and perhaps Joannie, and the uprising of young Japanese, Russian and even American talents, somebody, or maybe her rival as well, will likely push the Ladies forward. I would say the future looks very bright, after this lull. The next Olympic will see a deep field of very talented young Ladies.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Nothing wrong with your beliefs when you say it is your belief or attach the imo prefix to your posts. When you do not, it appears your real reason for posting is to degrade the American fans. It really requires a rationale on a poster's part.
Having said that, I thought Sasha would have dethroned MK, but Sasha , imo, was a head case, however that is another thread. I had no idea that Orser was inflexible.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
If the trend continues...
Most likely Sochi Gold Medalist will be Sotnikova of Russia...who is the most consistent skater.
I hope Yuna, mao or Tuktamisheva wins the gold there.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am not nearly as optimistic as you, about either the men's or the ladies' divisions.
For the men, I think Patrick Chan is one-of-a-kind rather than a "trend." If the trend is, "do everything extremely well and throw in three quads to boot," then others may aspire to join the parade, but I think it is more likely to remain a one-man show. Maybe Hanyu can make it a two-man show while we are waiting for Nathan Chen and Nam Nguyen.
)As for the ladies, I think the Big Two + Miki + Joannie have peaked. It was fun while it lasted. Maybe the new Russian and Japanese kids on the block will show us something. Maybe not.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
This makes a lot of sense. I think Gachinsky will continue to place in the two remaining Worlds and be a hot ticket in Sochi.
For the Ladies, Alena did extremely well, and will give Sotnikova a run as well as Macarova.
Their two sets of dances will begin to creep up next year.
I'm not sure with their Pairs. Their top team skated like has beens.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I doubt if Adelina or Liza will ever have much trouble beating Alena and Ksenia once they are old enough for the senior circuit.
Adelina right now at only 14 would have been a serious medal contender at this Worlds if she was age eligible.
I am not nearly as optimistic as you, about either the men's or the ladies' divisions.
For the men, I think Patrick Chan is one-of-a-kind rather than a "trend." If the trend is, "do everything extremely well and throw in three quads to boot," then others may aspire to join the parade, but I think it is more likely to remain a one-man show. Maybe Hanyu can make it a two-man show while we are waiting for Nathan Chen and Nam Nguyen.
As for the ladies, I think the Big Two + Miki + Joannie have peaked. It was fun while it lasted. Maybe the new Russian and Japanese kids on the block will show us something. Maybe not.
I agree with the general sentiment but think that maybe Kazuka is willing to give it a try - or, we will know for sure next year (when we see if he adds a quad to the short, and maybe a second to the long)
As for the ladies, it will be interesting to see if we see a new push toward "you need the 3x3" and all the other goods too OR not (right now, looks more like not...but remains unclear).
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Hi Emma - I don't count quads nor do I care about them. They have replaced barrel jumping. I enjoy watching blade-to-ice skating. Now, since quads get medals, can you tell me how many Quad Toes were actually ratified? and did anyone chance a different kind of Quad? Akaik, I didn't see many complete quads, and the ones I did, seem destined to the top of the podium.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I think Kozuka has finally learned how to bring it at the big event and will step up from here on. However, though he may challenge Chan and keep him on his toe, he will have a hard time beating Chan who is two years his junior. His innate talent and mindset are both just a notch below Chan's. Chan's impact on the sport will be mostly on the up and comers. So many of them have been modeling him now, or even gunning for him as little Nam, I suspect, may be preparing to do. The most important part is what is now believed to be achievable, a new standard to aspire to or to surpass. I believe Patrick will dominate for a few years if he wishes to, getting chased, but the next wave of new talents will be closer to the bar he sets and there will be super talented ones to challenge his standard, though I suspect his records will stand for a while, and by his records I mean his future ones as well. He is his own biggest challenge right now. He is a one man show, but there will be other one man shows in the future.
The Ladies, though it's frustrating right now in the US, the Junior fileld in the World is extremely rich with talents. Of course, for girls, the future is more unpredictable due to the impart of puberty on their bodies. That's why it's great to have so many pickings. Besides, often a super girl emerges from nowhere to dominate even as some shine much later in their careers after years of hard work and determination. Their projectories are more varied and less predictable than those of Men.
Yes, I am optimistic and think it's a pretty exciting time for figure skating, though I understand it's difficult to feel this way in the US.
I think fundamental changes are needed in the US to produce a nice crop of World medalists, but as it is, there is neither will nor resources to dedicate to the future of figure skating in this country.
The Ladies, though it's frustrating right now in the US, the Junior fileld in the World is extremely rich with talents. Of course, for girls, the future is more unpredictable due to the impart of puberty on their bodies. That's why it's great to have so many pickings. Besides, often a super girl emerges from nowhere to dominate even as some shine much later in their careers after years of hard work and determination. Their projectories are more varied and less predictable than those of Men.
Yes, I am optimistic and think it's a pretty exciting time for figure skating, though I understand it's difficult to feel this way in the US.
I think fundamental changes are needed in the US to produce a nice crop of World medalists, but as it is, there is neither will nor resources to dedicate to the future of figure skating in this country.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
And guess who will blow away the filed? New trend?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
LP: Fully rotated quad toes: Chan (4T and 4T+3T), Kozuka, Gachinski, Joubert, Brezina, Fernadez, Bradley, Van der Perren,
SP: Chan (4T+3T), Oda, Verner, Bradley (4T+2T)
Fernandez did both 4T and 4S in the LP. (Reynolds attempted both 4T and 4S but was not successful.)
One good thing about barrel jumping -- it's a real sport. No sequins, no music, so prancing and posing. And best of all, no judging controversies. If I jump 20 barrels and you jump 21, you win!
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
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What exactly do you mean by this?
CoP should have rules that punish bad choreography, it should allow skaters to create great programs with a certain amount of freedom, and it should precisely reward difficulty. CoP is currently failing at all of those things (partly because of the rules themselves and partly because judges are not scoring correctly).
The fact is that doing a 3Lutz+3Toe and then a solo 3Toe is harder than doing a 3Toe+3Toe and solo 3Lutz. The system currently rewards them equally. That is wrong. The same goes for combinations with a 3Loop at the end. A 3Lutz-3Loop is of greater difficulty than just 1 point over a 3Lutz+3Toe and in actuality the current CoP sometimes doesn't even give the skater that extra point. Because, again, if someone executres a 3Lutz+3Toe and solo 3Loop in their Long Program, they receive the same amount of points as someone who executed a 3Lutz+3Loop and solo 3Toe. Plus 3Loop combinations are more prone to downgrades, making it even less desirable to try one (even with the new rule of a jump being called as underrotated not hurting as much).
The system needs to be tweaked to specifically rewarding jumping passes for their exact relative difficulty. The system needs to grade spins and footwork on quality more than the amount of positions/turns a skater can cram into them (and judges need to be trained better to understand which spins are the most difficult and best executed, because they are doing a terrible job at it right now). The SHORT PROGRAM needs to go back to being 8 required elements. If the required Footwork sequences took up less time, but were graded more on actual quality than how convoluted you can make them, then there would still be room to have all 8 required elements in the SP under CoP without the programs becoming too cramped.
The LONG PROGRAM needs to go back to being a Free Skate where skaters have optional slots about which additional technical elements they want to include in their programs on top of the minimum requirements. And those minimum requirements should be:
*6 jumping passes, with 2 of them being a two-jump combination (7 jumping passes for male programs)
*3 spins
*1 footwork sequence or spiral sequence
From there, skaters would have 3 optional slots available. They can use these flexible slots to add anything they want to the program - spins, footwork sequences, spiral sequences, jumping passes, or extra jumps done in combination (doing a 3-jump combination instead of a 2-jump combination would count as a slot and a total of 3 jumps would be a maximum a skater can attempt in a single combination...additionally note that something like a 3Toe/half loop/3Sal would count as a 2-jump combination).
The limitations would be as follows:
*No more than 3 footwork sequences in a program (skaters may not repeat the same type of footwork pattern and could do 1 circular, 1 straightline, and 1 serpentine at most).
*No more than 2 spiral sequences in a program (that are of sufficient duration to be scored) and a footwork sequence must also be included in the program if the skater has 2 spiral sequences.
*A maximum of 2 slots can be used to add additional combination jumps to the program (and only 1 three-jump combination may be attempted).
*A maximum of 2 slots can be used to add additional jumping passes to the program. If 2 slots ARE used for extra jumping passes, then the lowest scoring jumping pass will receive a 40% penalty to its base value (adding this many extra jumping passes can make it too easy to gain points, so there has to be a balance).
These changes would allow for more variety within the Long Programs, letting skaters set themselves apart from each other a little more and have greater control over what elements they can include in their programs to best interpret the music. I firmly believe individual programs would look better, competitions would be more exciting, and entire seasons would be more dynamic if these rules were in place. We need to be left guessing what a skater will do next. We need to see different skaters doing different technical layouts. We need to see programs change more throughout the season, as skaters experiment with different elements and ideas. CoP currently does not allow people to make as many choices as they should be able to. Choices are interesting.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
^^ :yes: :thumbsup:
I agree with BoP about tweaking the scoring to reflect actual difficulty, and I like the suggestion about having the "optional slots." I'm so tired of skating competitions that look like everybody crafted their program from the same recipe book--especially the singles' programs. I'm tired of slow, contorted spins in ugly positions that go on forever, and I'm tired of overwrought footwork sequences.
I agree with BoP about tweaking the scoring to reflect actual difficulty, and I like the suggestion about having the "optional slots." I'm so tired of skating competitions that look like everybody crafted their program from the same recipe book--especially the singles' programs. I'm tired of slow, contorted spins in ugly positions that go on forever, and I'm tired of overwrought footwork sequences.
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