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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    ^^^^The real difference to make up for is between the quad's value and the value of what another skater does in its place. It's not lke they let the jumping pass pass.

    A quad is worth over 5 points more than most triples but only 1.80 over a 3A or less than a point more than a 3A with 10% bonus...
    True, but when the quad man also has a triple Axel (even with occasional negative GOE) it's hard catch him. And when he has two quads including a quad-triple combo and a triple Axel. without giving anything away in PCSs, you're back to the one-man show.

  2. #47
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    ^^^^ GOE's value for 4/3 combo is the same as for a solo quad. A quad combo is done only as a means to do a 2nd quad and to add COP math confusion.

    Oda absolutely didn't have to do a quad combo in his LP since he wasn't planning on 2 quads.

    Maybe that is the additional value of having quads in your program - forcing your COP math impaired rival and his team into program errors!

  3. #48
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    Still, let's look at what a skater faces if he doesn't have a quad in his arsenal.

    Here is Lysacek's Olympic gold medal jump layout (with current base values before second half bonuses.)

    3Lz+3T = 6.0
    3A = 8.5
    3S = 4.2
    3A+2T = 9.9
    3Lo = 5.1
    3F+2T+2Lo = 8.5
    3Lz = 6.0
    2A = 3.3

    Total = 51.5

    Here is what Chan just did.

    4T = 10.3
    4T+3T = 14.3
    3Lz = 6.0
    3A = 8.5
    3Lz+1Lo+3S = 10.7
    3F = 5.3
    3Lo = 5.1
    2A+2T = 4.7

    Total = 64.9

  4. #49
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    ^^^^^Patrick Chan

    eta, This also shows I was right that Chan left some marks on the table when he tacked on a 2T instead of 3T on to the 2A after he missed the intended combo due to a bad landing. He wouldn't have Zayaked as Wallylutz corrected me.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 05-01-2011 at 04:57 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    ^^^^ GOE's value for 4/3 combo is the same as for a solo quad. A quad combo is done only as a means to do a 2nd quad and to add COP math confusion.

    Oda absolutely didn't have to do a quad combo in his LP since he wasn't planning on 2 quads.
    True

    Maybe that is the additional value of having quads in your program - forcing your COP math impaired rival and his team into program errors!
    It has been said, another added value of having Quad in your program is that you force your opponents to copy you and make errors they otherwise wouldn't have make. Looks like Oda didn't have to do a 4/3 combo but tried anyway because he wanted to copy Chan's 4/3, ended up making an execution error + CoP math error that cost him a Triple Axel.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    ^^^^^Patrick Chan

    eta, This also shows I was right that Chan left some marks on the table when he tacked on a 2T instead of 3T on to the 2A after he missed the intended combo due to a bad landing. He wouldn't have Zayaked as Wallylutz corrected me.


    I don't think I understand what you are saying. The layout posted by Mathman indicated two 4T and 3Lz. Given Chan already did a 3T, there is no possibility he could have add another 3T behind the 3Lo. There is really no if or but, you are allowed only to repeat two different jumps with 3 rev. or higher where 3T and 4T are considered two different jumps.

    Here is the video evidence from Canadian Nationals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPcPTXUh1uA#t=4m2s
    Last edited by wallylutz; 05-01-2011 at 05:24 PM.

  7. #52
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    The following is a direct quote from the ISU Technical Panel Handbook Single Skating:

    Quote Originally Posted by ISU on Free Skating
    Jumping elements are individual jumps, jump combinations and jump sequences. A well balanced Free Skating program must contain 8 jumping elements for Senior & Junior Men and 7 jumping elements for Senior & Junior Ladies one of which must be (or must include) an Axel type jump. Individual jumps can contain any number of revolutions.
    Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump-combination or in a jump sequence. A Double Axel can not be included more than two (2) times in total in a Single’s Free Program (as a Solo Jump or a part of Combination/Sequence). Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two different jumps. A repeated triple or quadruple solo jump, not included into a jump combination or a jump sequence, will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump sequence and counted as a jump sequence with only one jump executed. If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered and it will block a jumping box if still available. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.
    The last bold part is the rule which Oda breached in his FS. For more information, please visit here: http://www5.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/p...v-list,00.html

  8. #53
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    I am open to a COP education.

    From the layout, I see just a 3T executed. So I believe anothe 3T could be added to make a combo out of his 3A, 3F, 3Lo or 2A. The most natural would be 3F/3T, something he easily and consistently does beautifully. I don't know why he didn't and then with the poor landing of 3Lo, he had only one option left, the 2A, for another combo with 3T.

    However, in the Canadian Natioanal, he did a 3Lo/2T as the last combo, so I must be missing something Zayak. Can another 3T be done only as a solo?

    OTOH, it can be seen how his BV could skyrocket if he does 4F and can do 2 3As reliably! 300 wouldn't be a joke then.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I am open to a COP education.

    From the layout, I see just a 3T executed. So I believe anothe 3T could be added to make a combo out of his 3A, 3F, 3Lo or 2A.
    I think the idea is this. He already did a 3T in his 4T+3T combo. If he had done another one (like in a 3F+3T combo) then he would have done two 3T's.

    But he also did two 4T's and two 3Lz's. You can repeat only two different jumps, not three (4T, 3Lz and 3T).

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I am open to a COP education.

    From the layout, I see just a 3T executed. So I believe anothe 3T could be added to make a combo out of his 3A, 3F, 3Lo or 2A. The most natural would be 3F/3T, something he easily and consistently does beautifully. I don't know why he didn't and then with the poor landing of 3Lo, he had only one option left, the 2A, for another combo with 3T.
    Because he can't add another 3T. I don't know how else to make you understand. Senior Men are limited to 8 jumping passes in their FS. During these 8 jumping passes, they are limited to 3 jump combos and/or sequences and they may repeat same Triple or Quadruple no more than twice. In Chan's FS, he chose to repeat the Triple Lutz and the Quadruple Toe Loop. After he executed the 2nd Triple Lutz, he can only do Triples that he has yet been performed in the program, which are the Triple Flip, Triple Salchow and the Triple Loop. No more Triple Toe can be executed because it was already done in the 2nd jumping pass as 4T+3T.

    However, in the Canadian Natioanal, he did a 3Lo/2T as the last combo, so I must be missing something Zayak. Can another 3T be done only as a solo?
    No repetition allowed after his 2nd Triple Lutz, only those Triples that he has yet performed. If that was possible, surely he would have add another 3T behind the 3F. That alone should signal to you that you are indeed missing something.

  11. #56
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    So I see only 2 different jumps can be repeated! So if he becomes good in doing 4F, he will have to drop 3Lz repeat and forget about repeating 3A. Actually he will have to drop lower value jumps to make room. Bye bye 2A and 3Lo.

    Can't wait to see what he comes up with next! I guess we may have a glimpse at Liberty, or not, due to all the schedule screw ups.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    So I see only 2 different jumps can be repeated! So if he becomes good in doing 4F, he will have to drop 3Lz repeat and forget about repeating 3A. Actually he will have to drop lower value jumps to make room. Bye bye 2A and 3Lo.
    He will likely drop the 2A as the most logical choice but it's not mandatory as it could have been another jump instead. But the 3Lo will likely stay, since 4F requires only one jumping pass, so it's either or, not both.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    So if he becomes good in doing 4F, he will have to drop 3Lz repeat and forget about repeating 3A.
    If he does just one 4F, he can still do two 4T's and two 3Lz's. He could just substitute 4F for 2A straight up, tacking the extra 2T on somewhere else. This gives him an extra nine points in base value.

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