Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury?

bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006
Maybe because Evan and Frank had agreed to withdraw. Do you think Frank would have made a phone call to the USFSA if Evan had wanted to compete? If Rachael wanted to skate, there was no way for Tom Z to advertise her injury to anyone. It is a matter of royalty.

Actually no. Frank/Evan started notifying them when they realized there might be a possibility. And as her coach Tom had a responsibility to look after her healthy and say NO.

This is a clear example of double-standard. Sure, Rachael is no Michelle, but this girl also deserves to have a fair opportunity that she earned from the National. There is nothing wrong with Rachael aiming to have a mini Yu-Na moment at Worlds. Too bad it didn't work out as she hoped for. But she tried, so there won't be any regrets and she will move on. Knowing this could be her last chance of competing at Worlds, deferring the college for a year to prepare for this event, how could she give up so easily? National pride is a good thing, but it shouldn't cost individual's dream.

What double standard. Yu-na skated well enough to medal. Rachael skated horrifically. Second, Yu-na informed the Korean federation about her injury and they decided that even injured Yu-na was their best shot at more than one spot. Do you seriously think the USFSA would have decided a THAT injured Rachael was a better shot.

Michelle also skated well enough to medal. When Michelle was given a spot for a competition, and was injured to the point where she knew she wouldn't skate well-Michelle had the class to withdrew (in this case partially because she didn't earn her spot.

As for the Elvis example, the big difference is Elvis wasn't skating at a World Championship, where his skate affected people's future other than his own. If Rachael had skated like this at the Olympics, I would have been fine with it because the Olympics is a once in a lifetime opportunity, and she's not going to be affecting next years spots. And also Elvis skated well enough to medal.
People play hurt all the time, in all sports, both popular and unpopular. No one ever makes a big deal of

Rachael was the one who choose to use this injury as an excuse. She choose to skate injured, because she thought she could do it, and then choose to use the injury as an excuse when she didn't skate well. Its perfectly valid and fair for US figure skating fans to respond back, by saying if your skating that bad, why didn't you withdrew, so we could put in a athlete who could skate well.

Once again unlike GPF, Rachael's skate didn't just affect Rachael, and Rachael alone. Rachael affected our world spots for next year. In other sports sure athletes, skate injured, but those athletes DO get replaced if it grossly affects their performance. I'm sorry the fact that she was contemplating things like leaving out a 3lutz in her short program, means that injury was grossly affecting her performance.

Rachael choose to skate injured fine, but that was HER choice. She did that fully knowing that 3 spots depended on her placement, and FULLY knowing that there were other athletes that were healthier than her, and would probably skate better. Fine she earned that spot. But you know what, she also has to take responsibility for that choice too. Its the oh I was so injured excuse that ticks me off. Nobody would have known for sure that Rachael was that injured, if she hadn't announced.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
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Jan 4, 2010
For the longest time, Kim always blamed it on injuries when she skated terribly. Like 2007 worlds, 2008 worlds. Boohoo.
So what? It's Rachael's spot. She's powering through it. That kind of attitude took her far in life and will take her further. Can't say the same about some of the posters. :rolleye:
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
....

Rachael choose to skate injured fine, but that was HER choice. She did that fully knowing that 3 spots depended on her placement, and FULLY knowing that there were other athletes that were healthier than her, and would probably skate better...

Exactly. However, I'm ok with Flatt announcing her injury. (Imagine the backlash if she didn't say anything, and THEN it came out that she tried to skate through injury!) I'm NOT ok with the way Team Flatt handled the decision-making process.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Maybe before the SP Rachael truly thought she could skate through the injury. After that, it would have been too late.

Still... not to have even informed the USFSA makes either her or her coach look a bit selfish. It's not all about Rachael's career and Rachael's dreams. That third spot was at stake and is always a huge deal. I thought Alissa and an uninjured Rachael were sure to get it back.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
For the longest time, Kim always blamed it on injuries when she skated terribly. Like 2007 worlds, 2008 worlds. Boohoo.
So what? It's Rachael's spot. She's powering through it. That kind of attitude took her far in life and will take her further. Can't say the same about some of the posters. :rolleye:

I don't like Kim's use of injuries. But once again Kim was injured enough in those cases to have to withdrew from earlier competitions. Three competitions Kim's country seriously wanted her to skate in, and she sort of needed to explain why she wasn't showing. I.e Asian Games/Korean Nationals (there was a huge to do then about if she'd still go to Worlds) and then Four Continents in Korea. So Kim HAD to disclose her injury. And Kim also medaled in both cases too. A HUGE difference. Once again, you skated well enough to medal but didn't win and injured, okay we feel sorry for you. You skate so poorly that its a horrific performance, when someone else could have replaced you....Different thing altogether.

And I'm sorry powering through when you are just affecting yourself is one thing. Powering through when your actions affect others, is another thing altogether. I seriously hope Rachael is 3rd at next years Nationals, it would be quite nice Karma for her.

^ Exactly. However, I'm ok with Flatt announcing her injury. (Imagine the backlash if she didn't say anything, and THEN it came out that she tried to skate through injury!) I'm NOT ok with the way Team Flatt handled the decision-making process.

Why should she announce her injury. It would have hardly come out. And even if there was speculation, people would have been like okay. And at the very least it wouldn't have been I placed that low because I was injured, and its not really my fault... I'm sorry but it was a total "its not my fault excuse."

If Rachael truly was well enough to skate, than she's well enough to take responsibility for her performance and her placement. You don't choose to skate, do poorly, and then use the I was injured, so don't blame me for losing 3 spots. Schpeel.

I remember Sasha Cohen refusing to say that she was injured after her Olympic performance. I respected that. She took responsibility for her skating.
 
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Violet Bliss

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Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Getting three spots for American skaters is not a pririoty of the USFSA. Why is it put upon the athletes as the utmost important responsibility of their participation at Worlds, above and beyond their personal goals and ambitions?
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Still... not to have even informed the USFSA makes either her or her coach look a bit selfish. It's not all about Rachael's career and Rachael's dreams. That third spot was at stake and is always a huge deal. I thought Alissa and an uninjured Rachael were sure to get it back.

BOOM. It's all about individual vs. team. And it's especially so if Flatt was not planning on being in the mix next year. To vacate and leave only 2 spots, regardless of initial intention, does not put her or her team in the best light
 

bibi24

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
As for the Elvis example, the big difference is Elvis wasn't skating at a World Championship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Stojko
Elvis suffered a serious ankle injury during practice for the Canadian Championships in 1995, but was determined to compete anyway. He began his short program but was not able to complete it due to the injury, and was awarded a bye to the 1995 World Championships. His 1995 World Championship skate is regarded as one of his most impressive competitive outings because he completed his full routine despite his still-unhealed injury. Although in second place after the short program behind American Todd Eldredge, Elvis won the free skate - and his second world championship - with a memorable performance which included a triple lutz-triple toe loop combination in the closing seconds of his program.
 
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bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006

Once again bibi, Elvis skated well enough to win. Athletes absolutely compete injured all the time. And if an athlete can still do it in practice, and play through the pain fine.

Evan skated injured when he won 2009 worlds too. But a year earlier he withdrew because he determined that he couldn't skate well enough in 2008 to do well. If Elvis had skated really poorly at that world championships, causing his team a spot, AND there had been another talented skater left behind, he absolutely would have been criticized.
 

seniorita

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Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I m the last to be Flatt fan and I m rootin for Mirai since vancouver, but to accuse a skater who skated injured that she should have thouht better is a stretch to me. this is what her team decided, with doctors and all, so I dont see the whole fuss. And they are athletes not puppets. If she was injured last minute then kudos for decidin to do it anyway. It was not like she was injured a month before and she is not the first to skate injured in competition but decide to do anyway.
If Caroll said Mirai is ready(i find inappropriate this comment after an event has ended, and over an injured skater), Imho he should have made Mirai ready at Nationals to earn her spot.
Finally i dont see the we lost 3 spots because they didnt lose 3 spots, they earned two:) (and US had two this season also)
 

Violet Bliss

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Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I don't think the skaters feel the same way so many fans seem to. Why would they?

Firstly, getting the largest possible number of next Worlds entries for US skaters is not emphasized or even considered as the goal and the criteria of the selection process of skaters to send to Worlds.

Secondly, unlike the Canadian and Japanese skaters, team concept has never come across as an important or natural concept to the US skaters, who are often bitter rivals.

From where would a skater get the idea of team spirit and self denial after all the hard work and intense competitions to be where they are? Their motivation, obligations, and considerations are naturally based on their supporters and sponsors, such as families, financial backers, their coaches, and fans. Their journey, hard work, sacrifices and struggles are very individual. Their teams are comprised of coaches, therapists, psychologists. etc., and don't include other skaters. Those are their competitors. If the federation is more involved and plays a bigger part in their development, and the training procedure involve more interactions with other skaters, they may feel more differently. As it is, any friendly relationship with other skaters is personal, such as being training mates, especially in different diciplines.

Fan's theorectical principles and expectations are not instilled values and pririorities of the U.S. skaters.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I m the last to be Flatt fan and I m rootin for Mirai since vancouver, but to accuse a skater who skated injured that she should have thouht better is a stretch to me. this is what her team decided, with doctors and all, so I dont see the whole fuss. And they are athletes not puppets. If she was injured last minute then kudos for decidin to do it anyway. It was not like she was injured a month before and she is not the first to skate injured in competition but decide to do anyway.
If Caroll said Mirai is ready(i find inappropriate this comment after an event has ended, and over an injured skater), Imho he should have made Mirai ready at Nationals to earn her spot.
Finally i dont see the we lost 3 spots because they didnt lose 3 spots, they earned two:) (and US had two this season also)

Rachael's injury was not a new injury but a lingering one she's had for a long time. Second Tom Z had a skater at US Nationals skating on a broken leg. So its hard to believe Tom's judgment when it comes to a skater being okay to skate.

I don't think the skaters feel the same way so many fans seem to. Why would they?

If the skaters don't care than why did Mirai apologize last year for "costing us 3 spots."
 
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seniorita

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Joined
Jun 3, 2008
^ still skaters are the last to accuse , and she is not a baby also, she took this decision, she took the risk, it didnt work but nobody tells me mirai would have done better, in nationals she didnt, i remember me bein upset she wouldnt be at worlds, but the rest are speculation.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
^ still skaters are the last to accuse , and she is not a baby also, she took this decision, she took the risk, it didnt work but nobody tells me mirai would have done better, in nationals she didnt, i remember me bein upset she wouldnt be at worlds, but the rest are speculation.

Mirai's skate at Nationals would have certainly placed higher than Rachael's skate here at Worlds. And would have probably been what we needed combined with Alissa's placement. Look once again the fact that Rachael was going into the short program, thinking maybe I shouldn't do a 3lutz, says it all about what Rachael really thought about her actual condition. I mean once again Elvis, Yagudin, Michelle, Yu-na, Evan. All of them weren't so injured to the point where they had to water down content enough, to where the'd never be in contention for podium. Sure Elvis said good by to Olympic Gold, but he was still capable of doing enough for silver, and knew it.

Rachael's normally a good competitior. For her to skate as bad as she was skating, can only mean practices weren't going well. Regardless of what Tom Z says- who has no credibility after what he pulled with young Farris.

And once again, nobody would be saying anything, if Team Flatt's immediate response wasn't "she was injured" And they did it so people wouldn't start questioning her competitive mettle. As I said before Rachael should have just taken responsibility for that skate. If she truly thought she was good enough to skate well, than she's got nobody to blame but her own ability to deliver for her skate being that poor. It would be one thing if her placement was decent and then the injury thing was mentioned.

IF her injury was that bad, she should have withdrawn. It really is either/or.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
If the skaters don't care than why did Mirai apologize last year for "costing us 3 spots."

It is not difficult to induce guilt on a 17 year old. It is not fair to impose such responsibility and expectation on such a young skater like she was not under enough strss and pressure already.

The reason Boitano was able to help Patrick Chan after so many falls in early competitions last year is because he was one of the very few in the world to understand the kind of pressure he faced and to instinctly know his fear of failing and disappointing people who believed in him. And Patrick, though just 19, was an experienced competitor.

Imposing, blaming, and guilting don't help the skaters or the situation at all. Better for TPTB to set up clear objectives and procedures for all kinds of foreseeable situations.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Dec 27, 2009

Before I comment on the subject at hand, I want to say that I think that Frank Carroll is being a bully. Seriously. This was not necessary. I realize that Phil Hersh probably spurred this on by calling him and saying if Mirai would be ready if Rachel withdrew, blah blah blah, but Carroll could have been the better man and not answered the question. Instead he chose to pick on a skater who is already upset and disappointed in her performance and AFTER the competition is over.

With all this talk about doing a good deed for the federation, Carroll was clearly NOT doing his part. He instead choose to put down a fellow coach and his skater by criticizing them and basically making his own federation look bad. I guess he has a right to his opinion, but I feel it was in poor taste

And I find it ironic that just three months ago Carroll was going on about how Mirai was not doing her job and being a slacker and whatever. Sorry, I don't buy it that she's suddenly cured herself of all her issues and magically doing 3X3 and Triple Axels.

I say this as a Mirai fan, and I don't put any of this on her, but I think she should be concerned that she has a coach that is willing to be so public with stuff. Sure things are great now that she won a 4CC medal, but what if she went to Worlds and blew it again? Just thinking...

As for Rachel, could have Team Flatt (particularity Tom Z) done things differently? Should she have withdraw? But that is an issue between them and the federation. If the USFSA has an issue with it -- which isn't clear -- then they will be the ones that Tom Z and co. will have to respond to. Not Phil Hersh. Not Frank Carroll. Not Mirai. Not Golden Skate posters.

And finally -- there's another example of fighting with injury that we didn't bring up = Miki Ando. She basically powered herself to win Cup of Russia to make the GPF and I believe she was still injured when she did so poorly at the GPF SP and powered through again in the LP.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Once again, you skated well enough to medal but didn't win and injured, okay we feel sorry for you. You skate so poorly that its a horrific performance, when someone else could have replaced you....Different thing altogether.

So in other words your criticism is not that Rachael attempted to skate with an injury, but that her attempt was not successful.

If the skaters don't care than why did Mirai apologize last year for "costing us 3 spots."

I am sure that Rachael is sorry that she was not able to skate well enough to earn three spots. Just like Mirai was sorry last year. Just like Alissa was sorry the year before. Just like Bebe and Ashley were sorry the year before that. (Although Bebe made the top ten! :rock: )
 

ivy

On the Ice
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Feb 6, 2005
So in addition to being a sport, and sometimes an art, skating at this level is also a business.

I'm not sure how contracts between skaters and coaches are written - a flat fee for a season, an monthly rate while skaters are competitive, a training rate plus a per competition rate - really I have no idea. What Tom Z would have lost financially if Rachael had pulled out Worlds? Not that would be his over arching concern - he would have been there anyway with Ryan. But I do wonder about all the competing priorities when making a decision to send an injured athlete to a competition.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
So in other words your criticism is not that Rachael attempted to skate with an injury, but that her attempt was not successful.

The above skaters skated well enough to place well. Which means while they were injured, they probably were injured enough where they could still skate decently. Skaters skate injured all the time, but there are different types of injuries. There are injuries where you can skate through the pain, and still perform, and injuries where you cant. I have a hard time seeing Michelle Kwan showing up to Worlds contemplating not doing a 3lutz.

Rachael is not normally a bad competitor. The fact that she skated THAT poorly makes it very hard for me to believe that this was just a "normal skate through the pain type of injury." The fact that she OPENLY admits that she was thinking about not doing a 3lutz. Merely illustrates this fact. The 3lutz is normally a very consistent jump for Rachael, for Rachael to say she was contemplating not doing it in the short program, suggests very clearly what the real status of that injury was. And what practices REALLY had to be going like.

Once again what I'm saying is if your injured but you can still practice well and skate well, than fine compete. Because most of these athletes have injuries. But if you are injured to the point where you can't skate well at all, and you are talking about significantly downgrading your tech content. Then you should seriously consider withdrawing. If your team is looking for spots for next year and there are others who can legitimately do better than an injured you. I'm not sure Canada had really anyone to replace Elvis, at the time. And in the case of Yu-na, Yu-na on one leg is the best Korea has to offer.

Once again, since she decided to skate with the injury, the injury shouldn't have been mentioned as an excuse for skating that poorly. Its perfectly fair to people say if your skating is that bad. (And neither Elvis, Kim etc's skating was that bad) why did you show up. I think its the I'm so injured that has people so angry, and if she hadn't mentioned the injury people would have been disappointed (why didn't we choose Mirai) but also whatever.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
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Jan 4, 2010
Rachael is not normally a bad competitor. The fact that she skated THAT poorly makes it very hard for me to believe that this was just a "normal skate through the pain type of injury." The fact that she OPENLY admits that she was thinking about not doing a 3lutz. Merely illustrates this fact. The 3lutz is normally a very consistent jump for Rachael, for Rachael to say she was contemplating not doing it in the short program, suggests very clearly what the real status of that injury was. And what practices REALLY had to be going like.

Once again what I'm saying is if your injured but you can still practice well and skate well, than fine compete. Because most of these athletes have injuries. But if you are injured to the point where you can't skate well at all, and you are talking about significantly downgrading your tech content. Then you should seriously consider withdrawing. If your team is looking for spots for next year and there are others who will do better than you.

Tell that to Carolina, openly and demonstrably omitted the lutz. Good grief. Leave the thinking part to Rachael and her team. Who are you to think for them? They know what's best for them.
 
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