Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury?

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Moreover LAmbiel has competed with worse injury than Rachel and many more!

how do you know it was not the US federation that pushed her to compete??How?
Plushenko had competed in Worlds 2005 after the push of federation to earn spots and he ended up withdrawing and with a surgery, has Rachel more influence in her federation?Maybe they knew about her injury and the whole decision is that she would skate anyway.

I dont know what exactly is the problem because Us had two spots also this season and previous season, it is not something new that they didnt get 3 spots.

Again with the comparisons.

Good God almighty :biggrin:

First I suffer through the Rachael and Yagudin comparison and now I am supposed to believe Rachael and Lambiel even belong in the same sentence. :think: .

Thankyou for making my point. :yes:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Then why don't you accuse all those other skaters who competed with injuries--some of them WORSE than Rachael's--of being "selfish and dishonest," then. Give it up, Hernando. It's clear that you don't like Rachael's skating, but all these personal attacks on her character are frankly juvenile and ridiculous. And before you accuse me of being a Rachael uber/fan, read my past posts.

Look E, read my posts. I have been clear enough about this and my problem is with the unethical behavior of Tom Z.
If you are a skating fan then you know this is not the first time he has tried this.

Go ahead and keep making false accusations if that is your idea of fun.

If you ever have time please send me your list of skaters who competetd at Worlds with a broken leg.
Tell you what, I am not holding my breath. :)
Talk is cheap :cool:
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Phil latest tweet. USFSA is doing an investigation on the matter.

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/olyphil/~9TTaA

...and the plot thickens.
Overstated, I think. An investigation is a formal term - they are just "gathering facts." I'm sure the USFSA is handling the matter in as low-key a way as they possibly can, given that Hersh and fan boards have made it a public issue. They want this to go away. I predict we will soon hear that they've issued an innocuous statement saying the matter has been resolved to universal satisfaction.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Overstated, I think. An investigation is a formal term - they are just "gathering facts."

...

I predict we will soon hear that they've issued an innocuous statement saying the matter has been resolved to universal satisfaction.

exactly. Unfortunately I don't expect anything great to come out of this (unless there was something serious that we don't know about). The point is, though- USFS normally wouldn't have cared, but Hersh's prodding and fan outcry forced them into action, like I (and many others) suspected.
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Overstated, I think. An investigation is a formal term - they are just "gathering facts." I'm sure the USFSA is handling the matter in as low-key a way as they possibly can, given that Hersh and fan boards have made it a public issue. They want this to go away. I predict we will soon hear that they've issued an innocuous statement saying the matter has been resolved to universal satisfaction.

It almost sounds like Phil Hersh asked them more questions and they basically got back to him with "no comment, go away." If there were a formal investigation, Phil would have enough for a story. Not just a tweet.
But who knows? We'll see what happens.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It almost sounds like Phil Hersh asked them more questions and they basically got back to him with "no comment, go away." If there were a formal investigation, Phil would have enough for a story. Not just a tweet.
But who knows? We'll see what happens.

In most investigations, whether formal or informal "no comment" is the proper answer.

Any answers come after the investigation is concluded and that depends on the outcome.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
In most investigations, whether formal or informal "no comment" is the proper answer.

Any answers come after the investigation is concluded and that depends on the outcome.

Fine.
I still think Spun Silver is right and it doesn't sound like a formal investigation, although they are not completely ignoring it either.
It's not clear to me that Rachael violated any rules. If she didn't, then that is probably what the USFS will say.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Overstated, I think. An investigation is a formal term - they are just "gathering facts." I'm sure the USFSA is handling the matter in as low-key a way as they possibly can, given that Hersh and fan boards have made it a public issue. They want this to go away. I predict we will soon hear that they've issued an innocuous statement saying the matter has been resolved to universal satisfaction.

It almost sounds like Phil Hersh asked them more questions and they basically got back to him with "no comment, go away." If there were a formal investigation, Phil would have enough for a story. Not just a tweet.
But who knows? We'll see what happens.

You are both right. I edited my post.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It's not clear to me that Rachael violated any rules. If she didn't, then that is probably what the USFS will say.

Rachel didn't violate any rules.

But then again, her coach/team probably didn't, either. (Doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, of course.) The real issue, to me anyway, is whether "rules" should be put in place to prevent or minimize the possibility of this happening again in the future. That issue can be debated on the forums for practically the entire off-season period
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Rachel didn't violate any rules.

But then again, her coach/team probably didn't, either. (Doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, of course.) The real issue, to me anyway, is whether "rules" should be put in place to prevent or minimize the possibility of this happening again in the future. That issue can be debated on the forums for practically the entire off-season period

I meant Team Rachael.

I'm thinking that since figure skating isn't really a team sport there probably aren't any rules like that.

Sorry, but it just isn't a team sport.

Even in other individual sports like swimming and track there are things like the relay but not in figure skating. (I guess there are certain events like the world team trophy but I'm talking worlds, Olympics, etc). Even gymnastics has a team medal that is hugely important. Figure skaters simply go to compete against each other no matter what country they're from. A victory for Michelle Kwan was not in any way shape or form a victory for Sasha Cohen, or vice versa. It's not like a soccer player who has a bad game personally but the team wins anyway.

In a sport set up in this way I imagine that skaters are injured they always think of themselves and what they themselves can do and attempt. I can't blame them. I suppose sometimes the "team" factor comes in like when spots are on the line but I doubt elite competitive skaters are generally programmed to think as a team.

Fans might be different. It's nice to see a skater from your own country make the podium. Although personally, if I truly dislike a skater's style I can't say I root for them just for being American. Other fans might be different, and that's fine.

Another aspect is whether it was wise of Tom Z to advise Rachael to skate regardless of the third spot. It is the second time this season that she skated injured and bombed, damaging her reputation in a sport in which reputation is so key. That's sort of a different issue from the third spot. apart from whether it was good or bad for "team USA" was it good for Rachael herself? I'm not taking a stance since there is absolutely no way to for me to know at this point what went on inside Team Rachael.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
^ Layfan, are you forgetting the team trophy competitions and the new Olympic team event in FS? ETA: OK, I see you mention them but don't take them seriously. Why not? And do you see no national (v. individual) dimension to the Olympics? What about the national medal counts that you find on any media pages covering the Olys?

Also, I don't know if sports like swimming and tennis have mandatory "champs camps," heavy-handed federations, and issues like the 3 slots of skating where the individual athlete is competing not only for herself but her country's chances at a medal.

I hear you guys who see FS as purely an individual sport but to me that view doesn't take account of all the facts. Here again (as in the old sport v. art debate) I see it as both/and.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
^ Layfan, are you forgetting the team trophy competitions and the new Olympic team event in FS? ETA: OK, I see you mention them but don't take them seriously. Why not? And do you see no national (v. individual) dimension to the Olympics? What about the national medal counts that you find on any media pages covering the Olys?

Also, I don't know if sports like swimming and tennis have mandatory "champs camps," heavy-handed federations, and issues like the 3 slots of skating where the individual athlete is competing not only for herself but her country's chances at a medal.

I hear you guys who see FS as purely an individual sport but to me that view doesn't take account of all the facts. Here again (as in the old sport v. art debate) I see it as both/and.


I guess had forgotten about the possibility of the team event at the Olympics, which if it works could be really great. It certainly is in gymnastics and I think would bring more fans to the sport at least in Olympic years. For a skater to potentially walk away with an Olympic team medal - even if no individual medal - would certainly help build the team mentality. But that is not something that exists yet.

I do think of the world team trophy as a lesser event than the Olympics or world championships. It certainly doesn't seem to me that the skaters stress out nearly as much about it and it seems like it's more a fun event than a career maker or breaker. Perhaps it will gain importance as the years go by.

My more general point is that I find it hard to imagine that skaters are brought up to think of themselves as part of a team sport. For now, it's about the most individualistic sport I can think of.
You are right that there are some team aspects like contributing to the country medal count at the Olympics ... I can't completely dismiss the team aspect ... but I just can't help but think of it as mostly a non-team sport.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Yeah, I know what you mean about "most individualistic sport," I've described it that way to friends before. And yet...

I'm wondering if perhaps in the Michelle-Sasha era, which seemed so intensely individual-oriented, it was because this issue never came up. I haven't examined the history but from their respective records it would seem that both always did their part to assure the 3rd spot and it was never iffy or non-existent the way it is now. They wouldn't have needed to think about the team because they took care of the team without thinking about it. Just a guess.

About skaters not being brought up to think of the team - I suspect that's an American perspective and doubt it would be seen that way in S. Korea, Japan, China, or Russia.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Yeah, I know what you mean about "most individualistic sport," I've described it that way to friends before. And yet...

I'm wondering if perhaps in the Michelle-Sasha era, which seemed so intensely individual-oriented, it was because this issue never came up. I haven't examined the history but from their respective records it would seem that both always did their part to assure the 3rd spot and it was never iffy or non-existent the way it is now. They wouldn't have needed to think about the team because they took care of the team without thinking about it. Just a guess.

About skaters not being brought up to think of the team - I suspect that's an American perspective and doubt it would be seen that way in S. Korea, Japan, China, or Russia.

You could be right about the different emphasis depending the country, I dunno. In America, the third spot was an issue for the ladies during the Nancy-Tonya era but erm, team spirit didn't exactly prevail. :p
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
This really needs to be pointed out: Winning that third spot isn't just for the team, it's for yourself, too. If Rachael wins bronze at next year's US Championships, and the team selection rules remain unchanged, she'd lose out on the chance to go to worlds because her suboptimal results at this worlds didn't get that last spot. And this has come up before. In 2006, Johnny Weir helped secure 3 spots for the US mens by coming in at 7th (which together with Lysacek's 3rd place got the US 3 spots in mens). In 2007, Weir came in third at the US championships and got to go to worlds, partly thanks to himself! Or in another case, if Mirai had finished third or higher at 2010 Worlds, the US would have 3 spots and she'd have been in Moscow.

Rachael is a smart person by all accounts. She knows that the US having 3 spots sets up a much wider target for her to hit if she wants to go to worlds again. For all the people who thinks Rachael threw this competition or didn't take its results seriously enough, this is yet another reason they're wrong. Even if we are to assume Rachael is a purely selfish person with no regard for what chances her fellow US skaters have (which I find very unlikely), there is still great incentive for her to ensure that the US gets 3 spots at this worlds. If Rachael was truly injured to the point where she was unable to skate and she knew it, she had very good reason to relinquish her spot and let the alternate go!
 

bibi24

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
What if Rachel knew this was her last Worlds, before fully concentrating on school? Then whatever happens next year would have nothing to do with her. So might as well give it one last shot at competition.

Or maybe her team believed she was in good enough condition going into the competition. However after the short program something had changed, the condition became really strained to skate with, or the injury had been aggravated. At which point withdrawing would mean no chance at 3 spots, so she had to stuck it out.
 
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Kinga

Medalist
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
I hope that Rachael, little more than the pet of Natls judges retires.

It is sad she will be remembered as a selfish and inconsiderate skater who put herself ahead of our federation.

No, this is not how she will be remembered by most. Maybe only bitter, prejudiced fans will remember her like that, but these are very few, I believe.
If she retires, most fans will remember her as a very hard working, determined competitor, who sadly probably did not live up to her potential. I will definitely remember her outstanding skates when she was a junior and how promising she looked out there.


This is a clear example of double-standard. Sure, Rachael is no Michelle, but this girl also deserves to have a fair opportunity that she earned from the National. There is nothing wrong with Rachael aiming to have a mini Yu-Na moment at Worlds. Too bad it didn't work out as she hoped for.

Exactly! People here are fed up with comparisons Rachael vs injured Yuna, Yagudin, etc. But why are these medalists justified for competing when injured, and Rachael is not? Just because they succeeded? What if they did not? Would they be justified too? Probably, if those lukewarm Rachael posters happened to liked that particular skater. Racheal thought she had a shot for a good performance, just like injured Yuna, Yagudin, Kwan etc (who by the way were not granted these medals at all, just because of who they are).

In general I am a bit frustrated that US did not get 3 spots - just because the up coming off-season and next season will be full of threads: 'if only we had 3 spots' 'we had chance for 3 spots and Racheal blew it'. 'Who can secure 3 spots this year'. 'X and Y should be going to Worlds, Z stands no chance and does not deserve that'. 'Skater X or Y was robbed at Nationals, why the hell is Z assigned to go to Worlds'. It would be so much less of this if US had these darn 3 spots. Otherwise half threads on GS forum will be about trashing and bashing. I can see that coming.
 
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