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Thread: Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury?

  1. #46
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwiggin3 View Post
    If there was time, I would have sent Ashley, then Mirai. However, it seems there was not enough time.
    Time is relative and Tom Z had to see his skater struggling and in pain.

    Now let's give the Russians some credit for putting Worlds together so quickly.

    I refuse to believe that a couple of quick phone calls would not have taken care of a quick visa. Accomodations were already made for Rachael so a different skater could have just taken her place and practice slots. Could it be any easier ?

    Are we really expected to believe Russia can organize Worlds in a month and US Skating can't manage to get one skater to Moscow with a week's notice?

    Let's not forget what Russia just pulled off. I don't buy the "time' excuse for a second. A better question might be if the alternate(s) were in competition shape.

    If Mirai, Agnes, Christina, etc have not been skating and already started their off-season ice break that could make a difference. But isn't US Skating supposed to have some ability to manage it's skaters and have contingency plans?

    I am not trying to berate Rachael about this and I don't blame her for wanting to compete. It was just obvious she was injured badly enough that an alternate should have been discussed with US Skating.

    Was that the case?

    ETA: Just read RD's post and the Hersh article.

    Carroll wants some answers and says Mirai was ready to go.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-02-2011 at 02:18 PM.

  2. #47
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    From that article I posted, we know a couple more things that were previously speculation:

    a) Team Nagasu was NOT notified to be on the alert after all. Oh man...this could potentially get nasty.

    b) Coach Tom believed that Flatt was capable of putting out 2 clean programs; it was Rachel's decision to compete after consultation with parents, coach, doctor.

    All I can say is...don't expect this to be swept under the rug any time soon. Wow...

  3. #48
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    I read the new Hersh column.

    I feel this is just cruel of Frank Carroll and Phil Hersh to publicly flog Rachael like this. I have never been her biggest fan, never rooted her on, but bit by bit, the fan animosity towards her over 2010 Nationals, the silly downgrades at the 2010 Olympics, the fact that she cut her hair because she was told to, she dumped her short program because everyone hated it, she worked with Lori Nichol on changing up her LP presumably because she was told to...I mean, after she put in the extra work with Lori Nichol on her LP, no wonder she really wanted to prove herself at Worlds. I realize 3 spots is important but it's not the most important thing in the world, and I don't understand why Rachael needs to be dragged through the mud for the crime of wanting to compete while injured. She's not the first nor the last who thought they could make it through.

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    Cruel? I don't think so. It was RACHEL'S decision (per the article) to compete. She's old enough to understand the potential backlash/ramifications if she competed while injured and failed to deliver. She knew the possibility that she'd be blamed for not getting 3 spots, particularly if Czisny "held her end of the bargain" so to speak. And even if Rachel wanted to compete, it's up to her coach to make the decision as to whether it was worth it. Tom Z decided to take a gamble, also knowing full well what would happen if his student didn't deliver.

    Perfectly fair to ask questions and call into question the judgment of Team Flatt, especially now that more facts have come out.

  5. #50
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    I read the new Hersh column.

    I feel this is just cruel of Frank Carroll and Phil Hersh to publicly flog Rachael like this. I have never been her biggest fan, never rooted her on, but bit by bit, the fan animosity towards her over 2010 Nationals, the silly downgrades at the 2010 Olympics, the fact that she cut her hair because she was told to, she dumped her short program because everyone hated it, she worked with Lori Nichol on changing up her LP presumably because she was told to...I mean, after she put in the extra work with Lori Nichol on her LP, no wonder she really wanted to prove herself at Worlds. I realize 3 spots is important but it's not the most important thing in the world, and I don't understand why Rachael needs to be dragged through the mud for the crime of wanting to compete while injured. She's not the first nor the last who thought they could make it through.
    I don't see this as Rachael's fault.
    I do think Tom Z needs to answer for this. I find it hard to believe and somewhat shady of him for not giving Frank or US Skating a call about Rachael's BROKEN LEG.

    Guess what, we now will have to hear fromTom Z about this. As I wrote earlier, this was not a decision for Rachael's parents to make. US Skating officials should have been notified and involved.

    Let the fun begin
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-02-2011 at 02:43 PM.

  6. #51
    Custom Title dwiggin3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernando View Post
    Are we really expected to believe Russia can organize Worlds in a month and US Skating can't manage to get one skater to Moscow with a week's notice? .
    Unfortunately, yes.

    While I accept it was Z and Rachel's decision ultimatly to skate, the more I think about it, they had a duty to USFSA and to themselves as representitives to alert the USFSA of the injury - if only out of courtesy. Whether any other skater could have done better, we will not know. But then again, perhaps if Z and Rachel has advsied USFSA of what was going on, Rachel may have decided not to skate and allow a replacement.

  7. #52
    Custom Title dwiggin3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    the fact that she cut her hair because she was told to,
    Citation please?

  8. #53
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    That's pretty harsh of Carroll. As he mentioned, Mirai did beat Flatt and Czisny at 4CC. But we knew all along her best performances are medal worthy at international events. I'm not so sure about his confidence that Mirai would have been ready in time. Was she really able to maintain her shape from 4CC up to the time of Worlds?

    As for the 3-spot loss, I really don't get the obsession with that around here. Aren't skaters skating primarily for themselves, because it's their own personal goal to compete and show their best? Or are they are just pawns for the federation to earn 3 spots?

    Rachael wanted to skate despite the injury, probably to avoid any regrets in case this is her last Worlds. I think she's earned that right, even if it costs the US 3 spots. We really can't blame her for that.

  9. #54
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    There's one more thing Carroll said in that Hersh article that really made me giggle:

    Carroll had been infuriated by Nagasu's skating at nationals -- especially her body language -- and told her (and me) that in no uncertain terms.
    "She has moved on from that,'' he said. "She was doing triple axels and triple lutz - triple loop in practice. She was ready to go.''
    Take it for what it's worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Cruel? I don't think so. It was RACHEL'S decision (per the article) to compete. She's old enough to understand the potential backlash/ramifications if she competed while injured and failed to deliver. She knew the possibility that she'd be blamed for not getting 3 spots, particularly if Czisny "held her end of the bargain" so to speak. And even if Rachel wanted to compete, it's up to her coach to make the decision as to whether it was worth it. Tom Z decided to take a gamble, also knowing full well what would happen if his student didn't deliver.

    Perfectly fair to ask questions and call into question the judgment of Team Flatt, especially now that more facts have come out.
    Perfectly fair to ask questions. I'm just saying that I don't see what she did as that unreasonable. I do recall the fan backlash against Alissa Czisny, who was not injured at 2009 Worlds but bombed, but I don't recall that Phil Hersh devoted as much attention to Alissa then as he is to Rachael now. Did he call up Alissa's coach, Julie Berlin, asking for an explanation for why she allowed Alissa to skate the way she did, with 2009 4CCs results foreshadowing Worlds 2009 results that Alissa's jumps were not stable? Did he call up Caroline Zhang's coach and ask if Caroline Zhang would've been ready to go in Alissa's place?

    Quote Originally Posted by dwiggin3 View Post
    Citation please?
    It's an article from Icenetwork, which is not allowed to be reposted here. But I can quote from it.

    The Inside Edge with Sarah and Drew - Nov. 9

    "I actually really liked my long hair and didn't want to get it cut because I have a rounder face," Rachael said, laughing. "I got my hair cut shortly after Champs Camp. The judges wanted a different look for my programs, and they wanted to see a hairstyle that would compliment the choreography and the stories of my programs. Plus, they wanted to see my hair highlighted so that it would have a little bit more dimension on the ice."

  11. #56
    Custom Title dwiggin3's Avatar
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    Wow. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    It's an article from Icenetwork, which is not allowed to be reposted here. But I can quote from it.

    The Inside Edge with Sarah and Drew - Nov. 9

  12. #57
    Custom Title CassAgain's Avatar
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    I've questioned the wisdom and choices of Team Rachael for years now, and of course this did nothing to change that. (And somehow I don't think the hairstyle she settled on was the one these judges had in mind.)

    I really hope Mirai and Frank did have a bit of a come to Jesus meeting after Nationals. Nothing would make me happier as a fan of this sport than to see Mirai reach her potential. I really hope she is in the best shape of her life and will have a knock-out season next year.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Rachael wanted to skate despite the injury, probably to avoid any regrets in case this is her last Worlds. I think she's earned that right, even if it costs the US 3 spots. We really can't blame her for that.
    If Rachael has earned the right despite never winning a major ISU medal then I believe Frank as the coach of many champions has more than earned the right to speak.

    I get such a kick out of the fans here who argue that skating is a real sport but whenever we see something edgy and feelings begin to run high they want to backtrack and pretend skating is a hobby for little girls. A "pageant" so to speak.

    I don't mean that personally towards you Krislite but it is a general observation. Frank Carroll is not a coach of little kids preparing for a spelling bee.

    He is a demanding and experienced coach with decades in figure skating. If he is upset I believe there are good reasons for it.

    A lack of professionalism and courtesy from Tom Z are good enough reasons for starters. Perhaps he wonders why Mirai was practicing at all if nothing short of death was going to let them be notified to possibly be ready.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-02-2011 at 02:59 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Perfectly fair to ask questions. I'm just saying that I don't see what she did as that unreasonable. I do recall the fan backlash against Alissa Czisny, who was not injured at 2009 Worlds but bombed, but I don't recall that Phil Hersh devoted as much attention to Alissa then as he is to Rachael now. Did he call up Alissa's coach, Julie Berlin, asking for an explanation for why she allowed Alissa to skate the way she did, with 2009 4CCs results foreshadowing Worlds 2009 results that Alissa's jumps were not stable? Did he call up Caroline Zhang's coach and ask if Caroline Zhang would've been ready to go in Alissa's place?
    I see the two situations as different and therefore not comparable. Czisny was not injured and quite frankly, performed the way most people expected her to perform (she was known as being incredibly inconsistent). The real issue that year was with the Nationals results/whether she should have been selected for the team in the first place.

    Flatt, OTOH, had her performance ability compromised by an injury which did NOT occur during the competition. Of course this is going to raise questions, especially if the alternate wasn't even notified that she might have to step in. Even if Flatt wanted to ultimately try, at least Team Nagasu should have been made aware of the situation (same with USFS).

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I see the two situations as different and therefore not comparable. Czisny was not injured and quite frankly, performed the way most people expected her to perform (she was known as being incredibly inconsistent). The real issue that year was with the Nationals results/whether she should have been selected for the team in the first place.

    Flatt, OTOH, had her performance ability compromised by an injury which did NOT occur during the competition. Of course this is going to raise questions, especially if the alternate wasn't even notified that she might have to step in. Even if Flatt wanted to ultimately try, at least Team Nagasu should have been made aware of the situation (same with USFS).
    I understand the individual points you are making. But I looked back at my original post, and I said it was cruel for Phil Hersh and Frank Carroll to be doing this. Really, Frank Carroll bragging about Mirai's triple axels and triple lutz/triple loop and how she smoked Rachael/Alissa at 4CCs, this is necessary? There's no way to prove Mirai's readiness, so we have no way of knowing if Carroll is just hyping Mirai up. I think it is unnecessary piling on Rachael for a situation that can't be changed. I think it's inappropriate for Carroll to be saying that.

    By the way Frank, had Mirai only rotated her double axel last year before falling in the LP at Worlds, we would have gotten 3 spots thanks to Mirai and Rachael last year, and Mirai would have been able to go this year.

    Actually, now that I think about it...didn't Mirai also skate at Worlds last year with an injury? It was only diagnosed afterwards as a stress fracture, but I believe she felt the pain already by Worlds. Did anyone blame Mirai for not realizing the injury earlier and alerting Ashley Wagner? Did anyone flog Mirai the way Phil and Frank Carroll is now for skating injured?

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