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Thread: Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury?

  1. #91
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    I don't think the skaters feel the same way so many fans seem to. Why would they?

    Firstly, getting the largest possible number of next Worlds entries for US skaters is not emphasized or even considered as the goal and the criteria of the selection process of skaters to send to Worlds.

    Secondly, unlike the Canadian and Japanese skaters, team concept has never come across as an important or natural concept to the US skaters, who are often bitter rivals.

    From where would a skater get the idea of team spirit and self denial after all the hard work and intense competitions to be where they are? Their motivation, obligations, and considerations are naturally based on their supporters and sponsors, such as families, financial backers, their coaches, and fans. Their journey, hard work, sacrifices and struggles are very individual. Their teams are comprised of coaches, therapists, psychologists. etc., and don't include other skaters. Those are their competitors. If the federation is more involved and plays a bigger part in their development, and the training procedure involve more interactions with other skaters, they may feel more differently. As it is, any friendly relationship with other skaters is personal, such as being training mates, especially in different diciplines.

    Fan's theorectical principles and expectations are not instilled values and pririorities of the U.S. skaters.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I m the last to be Flatt fan and I m rootin for Mirai since vancouver, but to accuse a skater who skated injured that she should have thouht better is a stretch to me. this is what her team decided, with doctors and all, so I dont see the whole fuss. And they are athletes not puppets. If she was injured last minute then kudos for decidin to do it anyway. It was not like she was injured a month before and she is not the first to skate injured in competition but decide to do anyway.
    If Caroll said Mirai is ready(i find inappropriate this comment after an event has ended, and over an injured skater), Imho he should have made Mirai ready at Nationals to earn her spot.
    Finally i dont see the we lost 3 spots because they didnt lose 3 spots, they earned two (and US had two this season also)
    Rachael's injury was not a new injury but a lingering one she's had for a long time. Second Tom Z had a skater at US Nationals skating on a broken leg. So its hard to believe Tom's judgment when it comes to a skater being okay to skate.

    I don't think the skaters feel the same way so many fans seem to. Why would they?
    If the skaters don't care than why did Mirai apologize last year for "costing us 3 spots."
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2011 at 06:53 PM.

  3. #93
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^ still skaters are the last to accuse , and she is not a baby also, she took this decision, she took the risk, it didnt work but nobody tells me mirai would have done better, in nationals she didnt, i remember me bein upset she wouldnt be at worlds, but the rest are speculation.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    ^ still skaters are the last to accuse , and she is not a baby also, she took this decision, she took the risk, it didnt work but nobody tells me mirai would have done better, in nationals she didnt, i remember me bein upset she wouldnt be at worlds, but the rest are speculation.
    Mirai's skate at Nationals would have certainly placed higher than Rachael's skate here at Worlds. And would have probably been what we needed combined with Alissa's placement. Look once again the fact that Rachael was going into the short program, thinking maybe I shouldn't do a 3lutz, says it all about what Rachael really thought about her actual condition. I mean once again Elvis, Yagudin, Michelle, Yu-na, Evan. All of them weren't so injured to the point where they had to water down content enough, to where the'd never be in contention for podium. Sure Elvis said good by to Olympic Gold, but he was still capable of doing enough for silver, and knew it.

    Rachael's normally a good competitior. For her to skate as bad as she was skating, can only mean practices weren't going well. Regardless of what Tom Z says- who has no credibility after what he pulled with young Farris.

    And once again, nobody would be saying anything, if Team Flatt's immediate response wasn't "she was injured" And they did it so people wouldn't start questioning her competitive mettle. As I said before Rachael should have just taken responsibility for that skate. If she truly thought she was good enough to skate well, than she's got nobody to blame but her own ability to deliver for her skate being that poor. It would be one thing if her placement was decent and then the injury thing was mentioned.

    IF her injury was that bad, she should have withdrawn. It really is either/or.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2011 at 07:08 PM.

  5. #95
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    If the skaters don't care than why did Mirai apologize last year for "costing us 3 spots."
    It is not difficult to induce guilt on a 17 year old. It is not fair to impose such responsibility and expectation on such a young skater like she was not under enough strss and pressure already.

    The reason Boitano was able to help Patrick Chan after so many falls in early competitions last year is because he was one of the very few in the world to understand the kind of pressure he faced and to instinctly know his fear of failing and disappointing people who believed in him. And Patrick, though just 19, was an experienced competitor.

    Imposing, blaming, and guilting don't help the skaters or the situation at all. Better for TPTB to set up clear objectives and procedures for all kinds of foreseeable situations.

  6. #96
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    Before I comment on the subject at hand, I want to say that I think that Frank Carroll is being a bully. Seriously. This was not necessary. I realize that Phil Hersh probably spurred this on by calling him and saying if Mirai would be ready if Rachel withdrew, blah blah blah, but Carroll could have been the better man and not answered the question. Instead he chose to pick on a skater who is already upset and disappointed in her performance and AFTER the competition is over.

    With all this talk about doing a good deed for the federation, Carroll was clearly NOT doing his part. He instead choose to put down a fellow coach and his skater by criticizing them and basically making his own federation look bad. I guess he has a right to his opinion, but I feel it was in poor taste

    And I find it ironic that just three months ago Carroll was going on about how Mirai was not doing her job and being a slacker and whatever. Sorry, I don't buy it that she's suddenly cured herself of all her issues and magically doing 3X3 and Triple Axels.

    I say this as a Mirai fan, and I don't put any of this on her, but I think she should be concerned that she has a coach that is willing to be so public with stuff. Sure things are great now that she won a 4CC medal, but what if she went to Worlds and blew it again? Just thinking...

    As for Rachel, could have Team Flatt (particularity Tom Z) done things differently? Should she have withdraw? But that is an issue between them and the federation. If the USFSA has an issue with it -- which isn't clear -- then they will be the ones that Tom Z and co. will have to respond to. Not Phil Hersh. Not Frank Carroll. Not Mirai. Not Golden Skate posters.

    And finally -- there's another example of fighting with injury that we didn't bring up = Miki Ando. She basically powered herself to win Cup of Russia to make the GPF and I believe she was still injured when she did so poorly at the GPF SP and powered through again in the LP.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 05-02-2011 at 07:17 PM.

  7. #97
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    Once again, you skated well enough to medal but didn't win and injured, okay we feel sorry for you. You skate so poorly that its a horrific performance, when someone else could have replaced you....Different thing altogether.
    So in other words your criticism is not that Rachael attempted to skate with an injury, but that her attempt was not successful.

    If the skaters don't care than why did Mirai apologize last year for "costing us 3 spots."
    I am sure that Rachael is sorry that she was not able to skate well enough to earn three spots. Just like Mirai was sorry last year. Just like Alissa was sorry the year before. Just like Bebe and Ashley were sorry the year before that. (Although Bebe made the top ten! )

  8. #98
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    So in addition to being a sport, and sometimes an art, skating at this level is also a business.

    I'm not sure how contracts between skaters and coaches are written - a flat fee for a season, an monthly rate while skaters are competitive, a training rate plus a per competition rate - really I have no idea. What Tom Z would have lost financially if Rachael had pulled out Worlds? Not that would be his over arching concern - he would have been there anyway with Ryan. But I do wonder about all the competing priorities when making a decision to send an injured athlete to a competition.

  9. #99
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    So in other words your criticism is not that Rachael attempted to skate with an injury, but that her attempt was not successful.
    The above skaters skated well enough to place well. Which means while they were injured, they probably were injured enough where they could still skate decently. Skaters skate injured all the time, but there are different types of injuries. There are injuries where you can skate through the pain, and still perform, and injuries where you cant. I have a hard time seeing Michelle Kwan showing up to Worlds contemplating not doing a 3lutz.

    Rachael is not normally a bad competitor. The fact that she skated THAT poorly makes it very hard for me to believe that this was just a "normal skate through the pain type of injury." The fact that she OPENLY admits that she was thinking about not doing a 3lutz. Merely illustrates this fact. The 3lutz is normally a very consistent jump for Rachael, for Rachael to say she was contemplating not doing it in the short program, suggests very clearly what the real status of that injury was. And what practices REALLY had to be going like.

    Once again what I'm saying is if your injured but you can still practice well and skate well, than fine compete. Because most of these athletes have injuries. But if you are injured to the point where you can't skate well at all, and you are talking about significantly downgrading your tech content. Then you should seriously consider withdrawing. If your team is looking for spots for next year and there are others who can legitimately do better than an injured you. I'm not sure Canada had really anyone to replace Elvis, at the time. And in the case of Yu-na, Yu-na on one leg is the best Korea has to offer.

    Once again, since she decided to skate with the injury, the injury shouldn't have been mentioned as an excuse for skating that poorly. Its perfectly fair to people say if your skating is that bad. (And neither Elvis, Kim etc's skating was that bad) why did you show up. I think its the I'm so injured that has people so angry, and if she hadn't mentioned the injury people would have been disappointed (why didn't we choose Mirai) but also whatever.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2011 at 08:05 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Rachael is not normally a bad competitor. The fact that she skated THAT poorly makes it very hard for me to believe that this was just a "normal skate through the pain type of injury." The fact that she OPENLY admits that she was thinking about not doing a 3lutz. Merely illustrates this fact. The 3lutz is normally a very consistent jump for Rachael, for Rachael to say she was contemplating not doing it in the short program, suggests very clearly what the real status of that injury was. And what practices REALLY had to be going like.

    Once again what I'm saying is if your injured but you can still practice well and skate well, than fine compete. Because most of these athletes have injuries. But if you are injured to the point where you can't skate well at all, and you are talking about significantly downgrading your tech content. Then you should seriously consider withdrawing. If your team is looking for spots for next year and there are others who will do better than you.
    Tell that to Carolina, openly and demonstrably omitted the lutz. Good grief. Leave the thinking part to Rachael and her team. Who are you to think for them? They know what's best for them.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Tell that to Carolina, openly and demonstrably omitted the lutz. Good grief. Leave the thinking part to Rachael and her team. Who are you to think for them? They know what's best for them.
    They sure do. And one can argue that that's exactly the center of all this mess. Is what's best for THEM the same thing as what's best for the TEAM?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    They sure do. And one can argue that that's exactly the center of all this mess. Is what's best for THEM the same thing as what's best for the TEAM?
    Best for THEM is the same as best for the TEAM. Rachael thinks she's better, even when injured. Nothing's wrong with that. She's entitled to thinking that.

  13. #103
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    I'm sorry but now we're entering the realm of the delusional.

    Sure, Rachael may think injured Rachael is better than healthy Mirai, Mao, Yu Na and Miki. Fabulous. She has a super-healthy ego and I'm sure that's part of her success.

    HOWEVER, I think most people would have disputed that opinion even before this Worlds. (Even healthy Rachael has a tough time against Mirai, it's not an "I can beat her with one leg tied behind my back" rivalry.) But they didn't get a chance to weigh in.

    To me this is a clear case of where what was best for Rachael was not best for Team USA.

  14. #104
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Tell that to Carolina, openly and demonstrably omitted the lutz. Good grief. Leave the thinking part to Rachael and her team. Who are you to think for them? They know what's best for them.
    Rachael is not the skater Kostner is. Kostner has other qualities, (skating skills, grace, lovely lines) that hold her up in good stead. Rachael doesn't. Rachael can't beat a cleanish Kostner with a 3lutz, rather than with a 3lutz. Rachael's biggest strength is consistent jumps, when she doesn't have consistent jumps, she has nothing else to fall back on. Skaters like Kostner do.

    Plus, no offense but Italy doesn't have 2 other girls at anywhere near Kostner's level. They have Kostner and Valentina. And Kostner wasn't taking a spot away from Valentina.

    Best for THEM is the same as best for the TEAM. Rachael thinks she's better, even when injured. Nothing's wrong with that. She's entitled to thinking that.
    That's a bit ridiculous considering a healthier Rachael barely beat a subpar Mirai. And the fact that Mirai soundly beat Rachael the last 3 times they competed in international competition. RAchael may think she's better even with one leg tied behind her back. But she knows FULL well the judges don't think so. Now if Rachael is at her normal level then find, send her to worlds because heck, she did earn the spot. But she was no where near at her normal level, and she knew it.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2011 at 09:11 PM.

  15. #105
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    Bekalc and I are really the same person. We hoped we could lead a double life, but our mask slipped.

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