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Thread: More on the Code of Points

  1. #1
    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    Question More on the Code of Points

    I really do like the code of points. However, I am surprised and, frankly, confused by how QUICKLY the judges are entering their scores for so many different categories! I could understand such speed under the previous system--after all, how long does it take to punch in "5.8"?

    Just wondering... :D

  2. #2
    On the Ice
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    I would think that maybe they are evaluating each item on an "as it is done" basis. That's the way it seems to me...

  3. #3
    TriGirl Rinkside
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    Rgal - Sasha was awarded 197 points for all three of her GP events, but she didn't give the same performance three times. Maybe they new in advance what they were going to award and that's why they can enter the scores so quickly??

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Realtor Gal - Yup. I'm with you. The concept is great but in actuiallity I think it is impossible. It causes a 'rush to judgement' and that breeds conspiracy theories. Why not have the judges take their notes home and watch the competition again on video and then come to mark all those categories sensibly?

    Joe

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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    Realtor Gal - Yup. I'm with you. The concept is great but in actuiallity I think it is impossible. It causes a 'rush to judgement' and that breeds conspiracy theories. Why not have the judges take their notes home and watch the competition again on video and then come to mark all those categories sensibly?

    Joe
    Seriously??

    I can just hear it, ''The judges will retire for the evening to await the highest bidder.''

    I don't think anything will ease people's doubts but years of solid judging.

    At this level, the judges are familiar with the skaters and their programs. That would tend to speed things up. It would be interesting to see how long it takes them to rate a newcomer.

  6. #6
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    I thought the judges have a list of all the skaters planned elements. That would presume they have a number attached to each element ahead of time on the paper, and just to the - or + as the caller relays it to them. I would think that would make it easy to tally up the program component marks quickly.

    Of course I have no idea how they can come up with the presentation part.

  7. #7
    Tripping on the Podium
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    This thread reveals how many people still don't understand how the CoP works. Here is a good, easy-to-read explanation:
    Code of Points @ skateweb
    There is a lengthy discussion of the CoP here:
    CoP discussion @ Golden Skate

  8. #8
    Go NJ Devils
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    Realtor Gal - Yup. I'm with you. The concept is great but in actuiallity I think it is impossible. It causes a 'rush to judgement' and that breeds conspiracy theories. Why not have the judges take their notes home and watch the competition again on video and then come to mark all those categories sensibly?

    Joe
    It could be like a piano or ballet competition, where they lock the judges away without food or toilets and with audio tapes and their notes and they fight it out until they gain consensus on the placements.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by tharrtell
    Rgal - Sasha was awarded 197 points for all three of her GP events, but she didn't give the same performance three times. Maybe they new in advance what they were going to award and that's why they can enter the scores so quickly??
    But Sasha did not get the 197 points with the same points awarded for the same things. For example, in her SP at Lalique, she had upgraded her spiral sequence from a Level 2 to a Level 3 by adding a change edge and another change before the fan spiral. In her Lalique LP, her Component scores were in the 6's and 7's rather than 7's and 8's, which also happened to skaters at Cup of China, lower Component scores for all skaters, which was explained as the judges being tutored by the ISU in how to more accurately score the Components. So for her LP in Lalique, Sasha had higher Element scores in some areas because she had added more difficulty (seperentine instead of straightline footwork; more difficulty on one combination spin) but she had lower Component scores. Had Sasha received the same Component scores at Lalique that she had at SA and Skate Canada, she would have had over 200 points. With the way the two high and two low scores are thrown out for each Element and Component, plus the scores of two random judges thrown out, IMO there is just no way that the judges can know in advance what scores they are going to give a skater.

    I'm no schooled judge in the COP but just for the heck of it, I set up a piece of paper so I'd just have to mark in the Element score and the Component score. It simply is not hard. In fact, if I were a judge using the computer system plus having a caller, I'd find it easier than the 6.0 system. To me, the 6.0 system now seems so clunky and inaccurate. As was demonstrated with Elena Liashenko, she not only moved up from 7th to 1st at Cup of China, but did so skating first in the last flight.

    Let me put it this way: When you first started on the Internet, didn't it seem incredibly fast? Like "How will I ever understand all this?" Now it's like "Hurry UP!" Or typing. When I learned to type on a manual typewriter (some of you may not even know what I'm talking about, lol), I could type about 50 words per minute. On an IBM Selectric, about 75 wpm. On a computer keyboard, on a good day, 120 wpm. Part of it was the technology and part of it was just practice. Or heck, think gameshows like "Jeopardy." At least the judges know what they're going to see. Remember, judges can and do watch practices.

    No doubt the COP definitely needs improvements IMO, but as far as entering the scores, I see no problem. Remember, the judges are not watching their "favorite skaters" (okay, some are, lol) the way a fan does. They're doing a job and concentrating on specific elements one after another. True, it's fast and it makes me think the judges really should get paid. My only concern is that at large competitions like Nationals and Worlds, the judges are going to be mentally exhausted by the time they get to the fina skaters. But once you understand the COP and have the technology to help you (I just had a piece of paper with the Elements and Components listed), it really is not hard. I just wish people would look at the Detailed Results before they make comments like the above--and you know how much I respect you and your opinions, Tharttell, so I'm thinking maybe you were kind of joking, yes?
    Rgirl
    Last edited by Rgirl; 12-09-2003 at 11:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    SusanBeth - Sometimes I should use the sign to explain my humor. But my feelings about 'rush to judgement' remain.

    rGirl - Sasha has fabulous perfect spirals. How could she upgrade them? Sometimes, the edging is off, but the spiral positions are textbook plus. I think the three similar scores for Sasha or any skater for that matter, shows that the judges have preconceived marks for the skaters. Not exactly a new idea among skeptics, like me, but brought forth into the new system. Let's face it, it makes life easier.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the fast markiing down of elements as they shoot by the eyes. Of course, waiting for Liashenko to do her lutz, a judge has time to examine the technique closely without rushing to a mark. But some skaters have intricate moves in the fields as well as tricky footwork flashing by. Are the judges busy marking the computer with their eyes away from skater? Possibly, imo.

    As I've said before, I'm not against the CoP. I think it needs a serious discussion by a serious representative group (not just cronies of Speedy), at the end of the season, and it definitely needs tweeking. I would give it another two GP years before putting it into the Olys.

    It is the Olympic Committee which is demanding reform of Figure Skating judging. Speedy is more interested in eliminating any uproar of fans on judging results (secret judging is a must) or out Figure Skating goes from the Olympics. think about the position Speedy is in.

    Joe

  11. #11
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Joe ... for Sasha's spiral, I believe she added the COE ... although she really didn't stay on that edge more than a second or two.

    And I agree with Rgirl ... I like this system, but hope they will be forthright in addressing the things that need to be changed. All in all though, I think it gives alot more credit for things other than jumps ... and to me that is all good!

  12. #12
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    Sasha also skidded a bit on the COE, and yes, she didn't stay on it long. Changing the edge is a little bit risky for her, because she often doesn't have good edge control.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I agree. Sasha did attempt a serpentine spiral that did not quite make it. Maybe the judges gave her extra credit for the attempt. She is not the only one. I think my Bebe, too, attempted a serpentine spiral and didn't quite make it. It's very difficult to hold a spiral on a solid edge and continue the speed; to change edge on it just makes it all the more awesome. Kwan is a master of the serpentine spiral because of her edges

    Joe

    I just realized there is another thread on Sasha's spiral so I'm moving my last paras to there.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 12-10-2003 at 05:47 PM.

  14. #14
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    I really like the COP system too. It took a little getting used to, but I'm beginning to see where the scores are coming from. Plus, it truly is more fair. I mean, look at the ABC Winter Challenge. Judges put Sasha in third, even with her 3 falls, and her double foot, and her step out. Even if she got 6.0s in presentation, this program is not a technically 3rd place program. Under the COP, this never would have happened, so it really does make things more fair.

    My opinion
    Kat

  15. #15
    Tripping on the Podium
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    These reports by Marie Hughes, a participant in recent CoP seminars, were posted on SkateFans -- I found them to be fascinating, informative, and even dare I say, encouraging!

    Part 1

    Part 2

    Part 3

    Part 4

    Part 5

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