Who should USFS select for Skate America? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Who should USFS select for Skate America?

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
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United-States
China is a very desirable choice if you are a skater/federation!
1. It's skaters are only super strong in pairs, so that teams and skaters in the other disciplines are sure that the 3 home picks will not be as strong as say in Russia or Japan or France or Canada. Why do you think that Domnina/Shabalin and Belbin and Agosto just loved going to China?
2. It is not the first in the series (if you want to start training later)
3. It is not last in the series (where it conflicts with university exams)
4. If you invite China's men or ladies or dancers to your event, they may reciprocate by inviting your teams that don't automatically qualify for a spot to CoC. (Samuelson /Bates anyone?) There's a reason there are often 2 Chinese dance teams at Skate America.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^^
Some of what you say, I can agree with. American figure skating and the GPs have never been the best drawing crowd except for Kwan. Americans do not look at it as a sport, imo. It's more of a pagaent, and who is the best. Interest in figure skating in amercia started with Sonia, and her popularity was glamorous films, not her gold medals. That's the way it is perceived in the US - a show case for pretty young ladies in sequined costumes with short skirts. Button did get an enthusiastic following of competitive skating, and I believe that was the beginning of competitive interest followed by the Albright/Heiss rivalry. However, show skating still reigned supreme.

I do not know the business of the USFS, and how important it is for it to raise money. I do know they have not played strategy in bringing their skaters to the Finals but rather they made it a showcase for its stars. Was that the way to go? I dunno. I would hate to see them toy with Chock/Zurlein for the sake of drawing in another 100 fans.

Even this thread is going for the glamorous US stars for SA which they can watch on TV and not speaking about strategy to be part of the Finals.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ The problem is that with a guarantee of one of the top three and one from 4-6 at every event, the strategy of getting your skaters into the finals by shielding them from top competitiuon is just not available any more like it was in the past.

Let's take Chock and Zuerlein for example. No metter where they go, Skate America or anywhere else, they will have to face either Davis and White, Virtue and Moir, or Shibutani and Shibutani. They will also have to compete against one of either Pechalat and Bourzat, Weaver and Poje, or Bobrovo and Soloviev.

So which gives Chock and Zuerlein a better shot at the finals? To go to Skate America against Davis and White and (say) Weaver and Poje, or to go to Eric Bompard and face Virtue and Moir and Pechalat and Bourzat?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
That's true, Chock/Zurlein will face the Medal Winners from other countries, even in SA they will. NO? but I think they should not be pitted against the Shibs and D/W and possibly V/M, P/B, and that young Russian team I like. It's a question of reputation which will be lowered if we say that American team placed 4th and out of the Finals. Let them place 4th in other venues. Not Amercian against American. Even the Shibs will be 2nd best if and only if V/M and P/B show up. They could be 4th also because American against American. Chock/Zurlein will have a better chance to medal in China and maybe Japan. Strategy strategy.

That's just the Ice Dance where we know a first place is obvious. The Ladies have Yuna in California, Carolina who likes America, Miki, and the likes of Sotnikova making an appearance. So maybe, putting what amounts to the best Americans will work for the USFS treasury.

The two newbees will have had worlds experience. Quads are quite possible. Separate them from SA. Jeremy and Adam have been hit hard due to a US Nationals. Did it affect their competititiveness?

I think Pairs would be at their best in SA to make a good showing.

Finally, this thread is far too early to speculate except for a fun show at SA. and in that respect, let them all skate. But when the GP entrants are finalized, then let's begin to scrutinize. Has the ISU changed its methods?
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
That's true, Chock/Zurlein will face the Medal Winners from other countries, even in SA they will. NO? but I think they should not be pitted against the Shibs and D/W and possibly V/M, P/B, and that young Russian team I like. It's a question of reputation which will be lowered if we say that American team placed 4th and out of the Finals. Let them place 4th in other venues. Not Amercian against American. Even the Shibs will be 2nd best if and only if V/M and P/B show up. They could be 4th also because American against American. Chock/Zurlein will have a better chance to medal in China and maybe Japan. Strategy strategy.

That's just the Ice Dance where we know a first place is obvious. The Ladies have Yuna in California, Carolina who likes America, Miki, and the likes of Sotnikova making an appearance. So maybe, putting what amounts to the best Americans will work for the USFS treasury.

The two newbees will have had worlds experience. Quads are quite possible. Separate them from SA. Jeremy and Adam have been hit hard due to a US Nationals. Did it affect their competititiveness?

I think Pairs would be at their best in SA to make a good showing.

Finally, this thread is far too early to speculate except for a fun show at SA. and in that respect, let them all skate. But when the GP entrants are finalized, then let's begin to scrutinize. Has the ISU changed its methods?

They struggled all season, not just nationals. Still, I hope one of them is at Skate America!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
They struggled all season, not just nationals. Still, I hope one of them is at Skate America!
Why do I get the feeling you are more interested in having Jeremy and Adam redeem themselves at SA than in any other GP event?
What is so important about SA that it is not important elsewhere? That's the trouble I have with this thread. It speaks only of raising funds for the USFS and not the sport of figure skating.

I am not in a position of predicting how the USFS handles it. Just hoping they consider the sport as well as the financial interest.

What I would like to see would be all the American boys skate a "B" comp or similar events in the US before the GP events. I believe Chan skated one last year in the big one in Pennsylvania.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Why do I get the feeling you are more interested in having Jeremy and Adam redeem themselves at SA than in any other GP event?

What is so important about SA that it is not important elsewhere?

Skate America is the only event that USFS has a direct say in, as to who to invite.

The problem is that skaters like Abbott, Rippon, and Nagasu are not guaranteed two events because they were not at 2011 Worlds. If Skate America does not invite them, they may wind up with only one event and have no chance to make the finals at all.

So the best strategy for ladies might be to invite Mirai to Skate America, then try to cut a deal with Japan to take her for NHK. Other countries might not want to invite these strong Americans because those other countries are trying to protect their own skaters, too.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Bear in mind if Ando and Kim both decline to appear in the GP and are not submitted by their federations for the ISU Grand Prix selection meeting, then two new seeds will be chosen. Since Ando and Kim were #1 and #3 on the Seasons Best list, and #2 is Asada (already a seed), the #5 and #6 seeds would be Makarova and Murakami.

However, if Ando and Kim are given assignments and later withdraw, the seeded positions would remain vacant. You can bet that some federations will "pick" Ando or Kim because they know downstream they will be able to replace them with lesser skaters who won't be competition for their top ladies.

I am hoping the ISU will come up with rules that prevent the second scenario from happening. The federations who have the seeds should be required to ascertain their participation in the GP before the meeting. Last year, there was ISU grumbling over the low quality of some of the 'replacements' for late withdrawals.

But the reality is that with 7-12 at Worlds, 1-24 World Rankings and 1-24 Seasons Best skaters already having assignments, the pickings are pretty poor after that and replacements for very top skaters aren't going to be much competition. It would be unfair and unreasonable to expect the remaining seeds to do 3 assignments to make up for the absence of some of the seeds.

I think the only alternative is for the ISU to crack down on the federations for allowing assignments to be given to non-participating seeds in the hopes they will change their minds. I think both Ando and Kim are quite firm in their intentions to skip the GP next season, and their federations should not submit their names for assignments.
 

chuckm

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Mathman, I don't think Abbott, Rippon and Nagasu are in any danger of not getting two assignments. Abbott is #8 on the ISU Ranking list and #12 on the Seasons Best list; Rippon is #15 and #7; and Nagasu is #13 and #4. On paper, they are not strictly guaranteed two assignments, but I am sure they will get them.

All of these skaters have struggled last season, and are not that likely to pose a challenge to top men from other hosts.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I think outside the US, Abbott and Rippon are much better known and bigger draws than the 3 US Nationals medalists. They have enthusiastic fans wanting to see them. In fact, I am pretty sure of this.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^^
Good informative post! I didn't realize there was a rule about skating in Worlds for getting an extra event. In that case I would put in Jeremy and Adam and who else for SA. And Mirai and which two in SA. Just so they have 2 GPs. However,

I would not put either of the two newbees to be negated or negate one of them. Armin, at this point in time, would be my choice.

I would not put Czisny against Mirai. Both these gals have a fight elsewhere.

I'm not so sure Americans have strong skaters. I do believe they have competitive skaters but none of them are really obvious podium finalists.

We have 2 podium potential finalists in Ice Dance, and one possible to slip in if 8 teams are now qualified, but that is all I can see of the Americans

Much depends on the possible 'increasing of the number of Finalists'. That should be taken up in their annual pow wow.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think outside the US, Abbott and Rippon are much better known and bigger draws than the 3 US Nationals medalists. They have enthusiastic fans wanting to see them. In fact, I am pretty sure of this.

That is kind of ironic, actually. All three of Bradley, Dornbush and Miner are guaranteed two events, whether Skate America takes them or not.

So we should follow Joe's suggestion above and invite Jeremy and Adam to Skate America, and force the other host countries to take Bradley (if he competes), Dornbush and Miner whether they want them or not. :)
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
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Jun 27, 2003
I don't think Ryan's coming back. His latest tweets suggest he's done working hard :laugh:
 

CARA

Final Flight
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Oct 16, 2009
Country
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I think outside the US, Abbott and Rippon are much better known and bigger draws than the 3 US Nationals medalists. They have enthusiastic fans wanting to see them. In fact, I am pretty sure of this.

That's true. For instance, both are very popular in Japan, especially with ladies. ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Joesitz said:
Chock/Zurlein will face the Medal Winners from other countries, even in SA they will. NO? but I think they should not be pitted against the Shibs and D/W and possibly V/M, P/B, and that young Russian team I like.

In dance, here is the problem. Let's say the top seeds go like this:

Skate America: Davis and White, Bobrouva and Solviev, Cappelini and Lanotte

Skate Canada: Virtue and Moir, Weaver and Poje, Ilunykh and Katsalapov

Cup of China: Shibutani and Shibutani, Pechalat and Bourzat, Crone and Poirier

NHK: Shibutani and Shibutani, Weaver and Poje, Capellini and Lanotte

Eric Bompard: Virtue and Moir, Pechalat and Bourzat, Crone and Porier

Russia: Davis and White, Bobrova and Solviev, Ilunykh and Katsalapov

It is not possible for Chock and Zuerlein to avoid facing either Davis and White, Virtue and Moir, or Shibutani and Shibutani. In fact, they must meet one of these three in each of their two competitions. Which two events would give Chock and Zuerlein the best shot at the finals?

The other factor is that the USFSA does not send skaters to other events. The organizers of those events invite the skaters they want.

Off topic: Is it permitted for event organizers to offer top skaters money under the table, in addition to prize money, to come to their event? I have heard that Michelle Kwan got extra money like this (possibly directly from the TV networks?), but I don't know if this is true or not.

When she was roped into doing 2002 Skate America after all of the scheduled Olympic gold medalists withdrew, her agent said that the USFSA made Michelle "an offer that she couldn't refuse" to come in and save the event. I don't think Shep was talking about putting a horse's head in her bed. :)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I am hoping the ISU will come up with rules that prevent the second scenario from happening. The federations who have the seeds should be required to ascertain their participation in the GP before the meeting. Last year, there was ISU grumbling over the low quality of some of the 'replacements' for late withdrawals.

It is not clear to me exactly how the ISU can prevent this from happening. No matter what a federation might "ascertain" in the spring, come fall a skater might change his/her mind and say, no, I'm not doing it.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I should read up on how the entrants are formed for the GP events. Please correct me if I am wrong:

All competitive skaters from the Worlds are eligible for Two slots for the GPs. Miner and Dorbush, if not invited at first selection process will eventually by the last selection will be selected.. That could mean Brezina and Verner both are elligible for two slots.

The BigSix hosts have the right to select their own Team of Three including those who did not skate in Worlds.

Non Worlds skaters are subjected to Invitations only for Two events.

The ISU will fill up any vacated slots by their list of best scores during the season outside of the Worlds.I dont know where Amar is on that list

A skater has a right to accept or refuse an invitation or a demand of their Fed to skate creating additional slots that only ISU can fill. (Injuries may happen.)
 

merrywidow

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Interesting that noone has mentioned Brandon Mroz as a viable candidate for the 3rd spot at Skate America. He did quite well last year at his 2 GP events, winning a silver medal & a bronze, I believe. The boy does have a quad you know.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Reading this thread feels like a walk through a Disney Pageant.

Are some of you serious :think:

In sport if you want to be the best you have to beat the best.

Running and hiding is not sport although pageants are known for this quality.

Here is a tip from a long time fan.

Load up SA with some of the best USA skaters. Then try and get some of the best Intl skaters.

Let's try and be competitive, not to mention relevant.

I know US Skating set up SA last season for Rachael to win. Boo, booo because the dirtbags that run SA should have known Kanako is not just better but much more appealing. She won the title and stole the show.

And that's the way it should be.

Hiding and running scared is guaranteed to give the opposition a boost. A BIG BOOST.

Competing your best and accepting all challenges is the way to go. That's the way SA used to be when people actually gave a damn about it.

It is sad now and sadder still how fans run from competition trying get their favorites into the GPF.

Hello, sorry to break the news but I would say 90 + % of Americans do not know what the GPF is. They don't watch it and most never heard of it.

Marketing 001 (beneath 101) says pack SA and try and make it as appealing as possible.

Cowards never win championships and don't deserve to .
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I should read up on how the entrants are formed for the GP events. Please correct me if I am wrong:

All competitive skaters from the Worlds are eligible for Two slots for the GPs. Miner and Dorbush, if not invited at first selection process will eventually by the last selection will be selected.. That could mean Brezina and Verner both are elligible for two slots.

The BigSix hosts have the right to select their own Team of Three including those who did not skate in Worlds.

Non Worlds skaters are subjected to Invitations only for Two events.

The ISU will fill up any vacated slots by their list of best scores during the season outside of the Worlds.I dont know where Amar is on that list

A skater has a right to accept or refuse an invitation or a demand of their Fed to skate creating additional slots that only ISU can fill. (Injuries may happen.)

All skaters who finish in the top TWELVE at Worlds are guaranteed two spots. That would include both Dornbush (9th) and Miner (11th).

Skaters who finished 13-24 are NOT guaranteed two spots. If they were 1-24 on the World Ranking list OR the Seasons Best Score list, they are guaranteed ONE spot. They might get two, but that is not guaranteed.

The selection order is this:
Host picks - 3 in each discipline for each host
Seeds - Each host gets 1 of the 1-3 seeds and 1 of the 4-6 seeds in each discipline
Worlds 7-12 - Each host gets 2 in each discipline from this category
World Ranking top 24 - of those not already selected, at least one per host/discipline
SB list top 24 / JGPF medalists / JW medalists - of those not already selected at least one per host/discipline
After all guarantees have been fulfilled, the final selection is to fill still-empty slots. Here is where skaters/teams who have only one or no assignment get a first or second assignment.

Armin Mahbanoozadeh is #32 on the World Rankings, but he is #20 on the Seasons Best list, so he is guaranteed at least one invitation.

Brandon Mroz is #22 on the World Rankings and #17 on the SB list, and is guaranteed one invitation, but it is likely that he will get two.
 
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