Changes to Grand Prix structure for 2011-2012

Mathman · May 4, 2011

This has come up incidentally in a couple of threads, bit I think it is interesting enough to warrant its own discussion. According to the latest ISU Communication (#1671),

1. "Under certain conditions" (unspecified so far), seeded skaters will be allowed to compete in up to three events. And

2. In the Junior Grand Prix, only six singles skaters in each discipliune will make the final, instead of eight.

ISU Communication 1671) said:
9. ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating. For the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating (senior) the Council decided to give the possibility to
seeded Skaters to skate 3 Grand Prix events per season under certain conditions that will be published in the Announcement for the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating.

For the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final the Council decided upon a reduction of entries for the Junior Ladies and Men into the Final from 8 down to 6 entries. Since the Council took the same decision during its previous meeting (see ISU Communication 1655) for the Pair Skating and Ice Dance disciplines, it means that for all disciplines there will be 6 entries only nto the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final.

http://www5.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130127-131435-nav-list,00.html

Joesitz (RIP) · May 4, 2011

Thanks MM. I'm keenly interested in the GP series and will continue to look at GS for further information while I am hibernating (real soon)

What is the point of 3 skates before the Final? and is this competition now being run for Seeded Skaters only? Since Hanyu is not a seeded skater, and will only have two events, he will not make the final, if the seeded skaters have more placement credits. No? That's just an example of many excellent skaters who are not seeded. BTW, what constitutes a seeded skater?

C_T_T_ · May 4, 2011

Joesitz said:
Thanks MM. I'm keenly interested in the GP series and will continue to look at GS for further information while I am hibernating (real soon)

What is the point of 3 skates before the Final? and is this competition now being run for Seeded Skaters only? Since Hanyu is not a seeded skater, and will only have two events, he will not make the final, if the seeded skaters have more placement credits. No? That's just an example of many excellent skaters who are not seeded. BTW, what constitutes a seeded skater?

Seeded skaters are the top 6 finishers at worlds and even if they choose to do 3 events they will only earn points from 2 events.

Mathman · May 4, 2011

The last time they allowed three events the way it worked was that the skaters had to designate at the beginning of the year which two events would be their "scoring events." Then the other one, they couldn't win any points towards the finals, but they could knock other contenders out by beating them.

I don't know why the ISU is considering this again, but I can think of two possible reasons.

1. Maybe they want the individual Grand Prix events to be more competitive and more exciting. For instance, Virtue and Moir and Davis and White are prohibitive favorites against anyone else except each other. Why not let them compete against each other in, say, Eric Bompard ? That way we could have a real contest rather than a coronation of whichever team is happens to be there, absent the other.

2. This gives the top skaters a chance to earn more money. This might be an incentive for someone who is thinking about skipping the series altogether. It will also make up in part for discontinuing the bonus money at the end ofthe year. This way, the ISU can channel more money to the top performers, without any net effect on the ISU's bottom line.

Antilles · May 4, 2011

V&M and D&W still may not meet. They could each end up doing three separate events, winning all six grand prix events between them.

ImaginaryPogue · May 4, 2011

I think Mathman nailed it. Make one event more exciting by having more top competitors.

Violet Bliss · May 4, 2011

I feel that the change is made for marketing and financial purposes since the seeded skaters are the big draws. However, without increasing the number of events, the increased participation by the seeded skaters will be at the expense of the lower ranked skaters as there will be fewer entries available to them.

ImaginaryPogue · May 4, 2011

Not only that, there's a rumour going around that the number of singles entrants will be dropped to 10 (from 12) and in dance to 8 (from 10).

It's really quite mindboggling how thoroughly the ISU intends to disrespect the smaller federations (the ones largely impacted by this).

I expect we'll see a spike in those participating in Nebelhorn/Finlandia/Mt Blanc etc, though.

blue dog · May 4, 2011

I don't like the return to the old system. In the beginning of the old system, skaters would attend all three events, even their non-scoring. Towards the end (before the shift in 2003?), once skaters qualified, they would drop out of their final event. This would make the first three or four events fully-attended, and then the last two or three events devoid of any stars. I remember the 2001 NHK ladies' competition lost Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya, since both had qualified ahead of time. The winner that year of NHK was Tatiana Malinina, which allowed her to qualify. 4th place finisher Angela Nikodinov, needing Yoshie Onda (2nd) to finish 3rd or lower did not get it. Most likely, Angela wouldn't have finished on the podium in that event, but having Irina or Michelle would've given Yoshie a lower finish. Of course, had Yoshie not made the final, the Olympic team that year could've been Fumie and Shizuka...

janetfan · May 4, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Not only that, there's a rumour going around that the number of singles entrants will be dropped to 10 (from 12) and in dance to 8 (from 10).

It's really quite mindboggling how thoroughly the ISU intends to disrespect the smaller federations (the ones largely impacted by this).

I expect we'll see a spike in those participating in Nebelhorn/Finlandia/Mt Blanc etc, though.

Then again if this is supposed to be a sport do we need to see Chan beating a much lower ranked skater by 100 points?
Maybe as mathman suggested a few better matchups will result which could make the GP more exciting.

Remember TEB preceeding the Olympics? The Ladies field was loaded and was highly anticpated.

Why not a chance to see a few of the top skaters/teams competing before the GPF or Worlds?

ImaginaryPogue · May 4, 2011

No, but those lower-ranked skaters still need a chance to show their stuff. It's not the six-nations champions, after all.

sigrid · May 4, 2011

ok, correct me if I'm wrong. If they approve all those changes, for singles it'd be: 3 entries for the top 6, 2 entries for the 7th-12th = 30 entries
Only with the Worlds top 12 it'd be a half of the GP spots if they cut it down to 10. And we have to add the Junior GPF medalists and Junior Worlds medalists

I don't like it, It's very interesting seeing the newcomers skating in the GP. (And from a totally selfish point of view, we'd see less skating and I bet the GP tickets will cost the same)

Tonichelle · May 4, 2011

C_T_T_ said:
Seeded skaters are the top 6 finishers at worlds and even if they choose to do 3 events they will only earn points from 2 events.

which is what the GP did up until, what, the Code of Points were introduced. Sounds good to me.

I'll bet this is so skaters can still skate in their home country's event and then go off and win a couple more with points... I assume it will work like in the past where they announce before they begin the season as to which two will be their scoring event and which will be their non-scoring.

chuckm · May 4, 2011

I am reposting this from the Skate America thread:

There are going to be some big changes to the GP events this year.

For one thing, the number of dance teams in each event is reduced to 8 (from 10), and singles to 10 (from 12). Pairs remains at 8.

There is a new minimum score per discipline, based on 2/3s of the the top Seasons Best total score.
For men, that is roughly 187, which would make only the top 45 men on the SB list eligible for the GP.
For ladies, 134 - top 50 on the SB list eligible
For pairs, 145 - top 23 on the SB list eligible, but Marley/Brubaker (at 24) are not eligible
For dance, 123 - top 35 on the SB list eligible

Seeds will have the option of doing 3 events, but I believe the intention is to fill vacancies (this was done in previous seasons, but only for Pairs).

Other substitutions will be assigned by the ISU, not the host, and directly from the top score list, in order.

Skaters will have the opportunity to up their top scores prior to the GP by competing in Senior B competitions such as Nebelhorn. You can bet that Nebelhorn will have huge rosters, as it is one of the few "B"s that take place before the start of the GP.

Skaters like Marley/Brubaker who don't meet the minimum score cannot get any initial GP assignments. If they do an international and raise their scores, they will be placed on the substitute list and will have to wait for withdrawals. However, there may be skaters with higher scores but only one assignment ahead of them on the list, so even making the minimum score won't guarantee that they will get to compete in the GP.

There may be more changes as well. I don't know when the ISU is having the GP meeting this year. It is usually mid-June, but with the extended season, the meeting may be delayed.

janetfan · May 4, 2011

This is downsizing and it is being done for several reasons.

It is not being done due to the great worldwide popularity/profitabilty of figure skating.

For years USA used to pay half of ISU's operating budget. Maybe Putin will pick up the slack. If not the downsizing will continue as Obama does not appear to give a hoot about skating.

Perhaps a few,,,,um, actually quite a few adjustmenst to the CoP will someday bring back the American fans and with it the TV money no other country has ever come close to matching.

GP's in China are great but judging from what I have seen they don't make money and are subsidized by the govt.

Maybe skating in USA needs another Harding to get the interest back up. Better than that would be another Michelle Kwan.

Let's go Mirai, we are counting on you to be the one.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 4, 2011

C_T_T_ said:
Seeded skaters are the top 6 finishers at worlds and even if they choose to do 3 events they will only earn points from 2 events.

Yes, but will they deprive a non seeded skater a medal? and equally important it will push the nonseeded skater back in the standings for making the Final.
A few years ago, a US Pairs Team (who happened to execute the first quadruple throw) was pushed back to 4th place because P&T in their third GP and won it pushing the US team off the podium. The US Pairs team may not have made the final, but it sure did lose out on a bronze medal. It not only affects the Final, it also affects the competition results. Fair?

The reason to return to this oddity imo, is the belief that there are STARS in the skating world to attract live paying customers to offset the rent of the arena. I'm not sure that's reason enough. It's all about money - not the competition. It does not give all contestants extra money, only the seeded skaters. Many top skaters have plenty of money or they would have dropped out sooner. it's not about streets sports kids who can not afford to go to the local ice rink.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 4, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
I think Mathman nailed it. Make one event more exciting by having more top competitors.

If MM nailed it, then his Fairness approach to US Nationals should be reconsidered too. Who are the more top competitors and how do they get that way outside of favorites on this forum? I read it as anything to make my armchair more comfortable while watching it on TV.

janetfan · May 4, 2011

Joesitz said:
If MM nailed it, then his Fairness approach to US Nationals should be reconsidered too. Who are the more top competitors and how do they get that way outside of favorites on this forum? I read it as anything to make my armchair more comfortable while watching it on TV.

I am about to go shopping and think it is about time for a new armchair.

Dodhiyel · May 4, 2011

Hernando said:
This is downsizing and it is being done for several reasons.....For years USA used to pay half of ISU's operating budget. Maybe Putin will pick up the slack. If not the downsizing will continue as Obama does not appear to give a hoot about skating.

Perhaps a few,,,,um, actually quite a few adjustmenst to the CoP will someday bring back the American fans and with it the TV money no other country has ever come close to matching.

GP's in China are great but judging from what I have seen they don't make money and are subsidized by the govt.

Thanks for the financial point of view, Hernando.

Thanks also to Mathman for the heads up on the rules changes. I have not had the Moxie to read ISU #1671, so I very much appreciate your pulling out this important nugget for us.

Hernando, I think Putin might be willing to pick up some of the expenses. So much has changed in the world, financially, and we saw how the stands were loaded with fans in the recent Moscow Worlds. With just a few weeks to prepare, Russia ran one heck of a good show.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 4, 2011

chuckm said:
I am reposting this from the Skate America thread:

There are going to be some big changes to the GP events this year.

For one thing, the number of dance teams in each event is reduced to 8 (from 10), and singles to 10 (from 12). Pairs remains at 8.

There is a new minimum score per discipline, based on 2/3s of the the top Seasons Best total score.
For men, that is roughly 187, which would make only the top 45 men on the SB list eligible for the GP.
For ladies, 134 - top 50 on the SB list eligible
For pairs, 145 - top 23 on the SB list eligible, but Marley/Brubaker (at 24) are not eligible
For dance, 123 - top 35 on the SB list eligible

Seeds will have the option of doing 3 events, but I believe the intention is to fill vacancies (this was done in previous seasons, but only for Pairs).

Other substitutions will be assigned by the ISU, not the host, and directly from the top score list, in order.

Skaters will have the opportunity to up their top scores prior to the GP by competing in Senior B competitions such as Nebelhorn. You can bet that Nebelhorn will have huge rosters, as it is one of the few "B"s that take place before the start of the GP.

Skaters like Marley/Brubaker who don't meet the minimum score cannot get any initial GP assignments. If they do an international and raise their scores, they will be placed on the substitute list and will have to wait for withdrawals. However, there may be skaters with higher scores but only one assignment ahead of them on the list, so even making the minimum score won't guarantee that they will get to compete in the GP.

There may be more changes as well. I don't know when the ISU is having the GP meeting this year. It is usually mid-June, but with the extended season, the meeting may be delayed.

Thank you Chuckum for this further information.

Given the reduction in number of Mens and Ladies to 60 slots each, and Dance to 48 and remaining 48 for Pairs, and Given the most likely figure for filling slots based on the SB scores and then using an arbitrary percentage to arrive at: (Plese check my Arithmetic)
45 Slots for Men - l5 slots remaining to be filled.
50 Slots for Ladies - 10 slots remaining to be filled.
23 Slots for Pairs - 25 slots remaining to be filled.
35 Slots for Dance - 13 slots remaining to be filled.
If we take the number of empties for Men as an example, we still have to consider those in the 1/3rd dropped in the original calculations, some of which will not be from BigSix, it would seem that the Men are ready to go. no need for adding a Top skater as there are not empty slots. Similarly with Ladies, Pairs and Dance.
I don't see any real change other than the downsizing of the entrants. It does cut out some slots for some small Feds. I don't see the need for the Top Seeds to fill empty slots, except possibly for pairs. So P&T, S&Z. and a couple of Russian Pairs will knock out 4 medal hopefuls from the lower ranks. Fair?

From what you wrote, it seems Marley/Brubaker are totally out of this. They will have one international at SA, and if they win in Finlandia that could give them more ratings.

Of course, the May meeting hasn't begun yet and there should be more items on the table.

Changes to Grand Prix structure for 2011-2012

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

C_T_T_

Mathman

Antilles

ImaginaryPogue

Violet Bliss

ImaginaryPogue

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

janetfan

Match Penalty

ImaginaryPogue

sigrid

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

chuckm

janetfan

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

Dodhiyel

Joesitz (RIP)

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