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Thread: For Serious Business re: steps preceding jump in the SP

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    For Serious Business re: steps preceding jump in the SP

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    A mohawk is a step as specified by the rules, and she changes edges a couple of times before entering that. It's not an intricate entry into the 3lutz, but she absolutely did do her 3lutz right after executing a step as defined by the rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Read the rules more carefully again, the requirement for the steps preceding the jump in the SP spefically demands a higher standard than what you just described. This is why several judges chose to give her -3 for GOE otherwise, a step out is normally between -1 and -2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Can you point me to the relevant documentation? I want to read it myself. If that's the case then a lot of people should be getting -3 for their solo jumps in the SP. Also, in the rulebook I'm reading a step out has a deduction of -2 to -3 in the GOE.
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Which is why there was this memo or communication sometimes last year, my memory escapes me, telling judges to crack down on the lack of connecting steps prior to the solo jump. I don't recall where I placed that thing or where exactly I saw it.
    I wasn't able to provide you with any documentation because I couldn't recall where to find it. But a recent ISU communication published after the 2011 Worlds re-emphasized again the requirement of steps preceding a jump has to be taken more carefully, see Communication #1672: The Single and Pair Technical Committee reminds the Judges of the necessary GOE reduction in case steps and/or movements do not immediately precede the jump in the Short Program. In case of steps the take-off of the jump must be in the rhythm of these steps.

    Also, if we review again the element in question here of the concerned skater:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chIj_PDa2b4#t=0m58s

    The requirement asked for "steps and/or movements". The skater had maybe, if we are really lenient, a single step at 1m and 01s mark and yes, the little change of edge. Otherwise, the clip clearly showed she stroked across the whole length of the ice in mostly pure stroking towards the Triple Lutz attempt. In this case, fairly conclusively, the requirement was not met. Along with the step out, the only possible GOE to be assigned in this case, is -3, anything else would be considered an error because essentially, this skater made at least two major errors that resulted in a about a -5 in GOE deficit, the preceding steps requirement not fulfilled = -3 and step out = -2. Lack of any transitions into the jump and assuming the jump had good height and distance and is somehow worth a+2 without the error, -5+2 would still be -3 and that is from a generous point of view. Thankfully, this error on the part of some judges did not affect the ultimate outcome, especially the one who marked that a +1. Nevertheless, the fact that the ISU made a point of remarking this again shows that they are noticing judges are not reinforcing this strict enough or simply omitted to follow this rule rigorously enough. Expect that this will be watched a lot more closely next season now that it has been repeated a few times now and this time, through an official communication.

    And it's not unusual that the ISU would issue a communication re: a specific element or sometimes re: a specific skater/team without actually naming the person(s). In December 2009, the ISU also issued a communication specifically targeting Virtue/Moir's original "the goose" lift where she performed a one and half turn jump off his back as the exit. It was ruled illegal even though they did not receive any deduction for an illegal element during the competitions that they performed this lift. However, the team knew they had to change or deductions will be applied in the future, hence they changed the element.

    Hope this satisfied your curiosity about the requirement re: steps before jump in the SP for senior skaters.

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    Moderator's note: Two posts disapproved on this thread.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info! We actually went into it a lot more on the thread. I got some new information there (in addition to yours) and here's my conclusion:

    She didn't do a mohawk at all (no change in the direction she's facing). She did execute a crossed chassé as well as a curve with a change of edge immediately before the lutz. Both those elements are specifically listed as steps for the purposes of the step sequence in singles and pairs skating, and both of them are listed as steps for ice dancing in rule 604 in the ISU Special Regulations & Technical Rules (download here). The section also helpfully define "movements" as elements like the spread eagle and lunges.

    Other rules pertaining to the required steps/movement before the solo SP jump: Under rule 511's Remarks: "A single spread eagle, spiral or Free Skating movement cannot be considered as meeting the requirements of connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements and must be considered by the Judges in the Grade of Execution (GOE)." That doesn't address steps at all, but I take it to mean the steps/movements before the solo jump must be more than one.

    And since Yuna did multiple steps immediately before the toe pick for the lutz, in my opinion and the opinion of most of the judges on the panel, she met the minimum requirement.

    Beyond Yuna, I find it interesting to note that rule 604 lists cross stroking as a kind of step (however it is not listed as a step for the step sequence for singles and pairs skating). If judges take rule 604 to define steps and movements for all disciplines in figure skating (there is nowhere else in the rule book that define what free skating movement is, after all), that would perhaps explain why for some people, they seem lenient in grading the solo jumps in SPs. If cross stroking counts as a step, then as long as the skater doesn't telegraph that solo jump too badly, it fulfills the requirement and would explain a lot of scoring. :D This would no doubt anger the fans who have always insisted that the lead up to the solo jump be as complex and difficult as possible. But clearly that's not how the judges have been enforcing it, and the rules may allow them to do so.

    I personally don't care that much about whether the preceding footwork/movement to the solo jump is massively difficult. To me, if it's especially intricate and difficult, that should be rewarded in the +GOE. But as long as it fulfills the requirement, I don't think skaters should get the mandatory -3 GOE. However, for those who want the lack of difficulty to be punished, I'd suggest lobbying for the following rule change: make the solo jump in the SP an element that must immediately follow the footwork sequence. This would make it impossible for most skaters to switch their solo jump and jump combinations around in the SP. And it would have the added bonus of forcing skaters to give more consideration to the speed of their footwork sequence, instead of just lumbering through clumsily complex footwork.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I can not agree that Yu-Na did a chasse. Such a thing would require a step, feet together, step movement. She is doing little pushes on the ice, not full steps, and the feet never come completely together either. I would not call her movement right before the lutz a "curve with change of edge" either. It was not really a curve but rather a straight line. She simply changes feet as she is going backward, placing the new foot down onto the ice on an inside edge and then immediately pressing it over to an outside edge.

    Seems repetitive to say all this again but the rule is there for a reason. The required movements are supposed to add a worthwhile amount of extra difficulty before the jump; if they weren't then the rule wouldn't be there in the first place. The judges not paying attention to the rule is the reason why the seasonal updates have now twice mentioned it, not the other way around (the judges giving no penalty because the rule itself only calls for a very simple step beforehand).

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    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Is there anything in the rules that specify a minimum number of steps? Or are we to assume that since "steps and/or movements" are plural, that the minimum is therefore two steps?

    I always thought Yuna's entry into the triple Lutz combo was only just stroking, didn't notice any sort of distinct steps. But then I suck at distinguishing all the numerous steps so...

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    When a skater is learning a high level jump, he/she practices it with cross rolls to get the speed which is needed to accomplish the jump. To see it in a choreographed routine as a jump (trick) from cross rolls is like seeing how the jump was accomplished in practice. Plushy's early routines always frontloaded and always looking like they were taken directly from practice, and choreography was not considered.

    The Long Program, (formally the Free Skate) were not designed to use the music as background for tricks. They were designed to show off how well the skater can present a program to music using tricks.

    The rule of steps before a jump became popular with that wonderful musical judge, Joe Inman. He rose to defend the rule and abolish the cross rolls into a high level jump. He deserves all the credit for making the LP bareable and at the same time more competitive.

    However, what I see in many competitions, is kind of a mintsy basic turn into the jump, and only because it is required. Most jumps, for me, still look like they did them in practice. How many competitors, do a high level jump at the end of their Step Sequence? - NONE! That's making the Jump another Step.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Here is Yuna from '09 when the 3Lz was her SP solo jump. Quite a difference in the way she enters this 3Lz meeting the SP requirement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDQ6EtGzd24&feature=fvst

    Watching her Bond SP the entrance into the 3lz +3T looks the same as what she showed this season.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed__N46IS3g

    Here she shows the required steps before her solo 3F.

    Haven't watched either program in quite a while and Yuna's jumps are just awesome.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^^
    Yuna is a very special skater/competitor. What I like to see, is something like Jason Brown who makes the tricks look like steps of a formal dance. That is difficult!!! preparation is very important to most skaters, and Brown is an exceptional skater also.

    I'm not against a separate program without music for judging the elements any which way. However, the majority of emotional skating fans would object to no music.

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