Plushenko wants to become a legend of figure skating

[pangtongfan]

(let me admire myself for a second)

but, can we say from another point of view. the reason why plushy don't have competitor with 6 world medalist and 2 olympic champion, is because he is much more dominant.
I think Plushy do have competitor as Goebel (2 time world medalist), Takeshi Honda (2 time world medalist), Brian Joubert and Stefan Lindemann......yeah! 6 time World medalist.

Goebel is one of the worst pure skaters to ever win World or Olympic medals. The guy was nothing but a quadster, even his triples were rather weak. Honda wasnt that good, lasted only 1 or 2 years as a medal contender, and could never do clean programs anyway. Lindemann, LOL, a one time home cooked fluke medal which he didnt even deserve. Are you seriously comparing skaters like that to Urmanov, Kulik, or Eldredge. The only guy you mentioned that is of any note is Joubert, and Joubert's best seasons of skating were 2004, 2007, 2008, and 2009, only one of those when Plushenko was on top.

btw, Stojko have 2 olympic champions as competitor because he lost to both of them.

Plushenko made 2 Olympic champions since he lost to both of them too.

btw, Stojko have 2 olympic champions as competitor because he lost to both of them. I don't think it can be used as evidence to "Stojko is not so dominant because he faced a more aggressive competition"......the dispute seems like...

- A is more dominant than B
- That's because B has more aggressive competition

- Why B has more aggressive competition
- Because B has lots of Olympic Champion as competitor

- Why B has Olympic Champion as competitor
- Because B compete with them in Olympic and lost, so his competitor is Olympic Champion

- Then how about A
- Unfortunately, A himself is the Olympic Champion, so he don't have so many Olympic Champion as competitor (Actually A has 2 Oly Champion as competitor as well)


No, i am not saying A's competition is more aggressive than B's, I am just saying there is logical problem by using "competitor's title" as evidence.

I will put this in simple terms.

Stojko in 1994-1998 had tougher competition than Plushenko from 2003-2006 by far
(Plushenko literally had NOBODY during those years, this cant be seriously disputed really) and Plushenko was only slightly more dominant. Plushenko from 1999-2002 had tougher competiton probably mostly due to only one skater, the great Alexei Yagudin, but he was less dominant than Stojko had been during this time. So in the end it all about evens out.

[gmyers]

Too bad 2005 worlds is missing as a statistic because of injury to Plushenko.

[Bluebonnet]

Stojko essentially won in 1994 Olympics according to experts like Scott Hamilton.

Right, according to this expert, Tim Goebel should have won 2002 Olympics over Yagudin in those "tough calls". Do you take that expertise seriously?

I must admitt that I was out of the loop for a few years while Stojko was in his prime. Of the several competitions I've watched, I've never felt that he deserved more than he's already gotten. Dislike the direction in which he's taking figure skating.

Besides, Stojko has always had close competitions with someone. He battled to win in the end which I don't think that should be called "dominance". Dominance is no competitions. Like the years for Plushenko after Yagudin retired. Like the competition in 2011 Worlds for Chan.

[Tonichelle]

Right, according to this expert, Tim Goebel should have won 2002 Olympics over Yagudin in those "tough calls". Do you take that expertise seriously?

I don't recall Hamilton saying Goebel deserved Gold... he questioned Plushenko's placement over Tim's, though.

he's also directed to explain why an American didn't win. He has a target audience, and it's not the world. NBC is so strongly anti-Russia that their commentators have to toe the line as much as possible... granted Hamilton comes from the old school - but at teh same time he knows skating and what he likes about it... Plushenko, well, isn't Scotty's cup of tea. He's not alone in that opinion. And his opinion didn't sway people's judgement one way or the other on that matter.

[wmsb]

[QUOTE=pangtongfan;571014] QUOTE]

that's my point: you cann't use title as evidence to show the competition is real or not. just as our mutual agreement,, both P and S has 6 time world medalst and 2 Oly Champion as competitor (yes, because they lost to them).As I mentioned before, I am not saying A faced more aggressive competition than B, I just pointed out a logical problem in "using competitor's title as evidence".

To compare all of their competitor: Urmanov, Kulik, Eldredge, Yagudin, Goebel, Honda, Joubert, Lambiel (05/06), Evan (09/10) will be a better way. but there is still problem because even if UKE is better than GHJLE, we will not know if thing will be like:
1) Urmannov=80, Stojko=78, Goebel(03~06)=75, Plushenko(03~06)=78, or
2) Urmannov=80, Stojko=78, Goebel(03~06)=75, Plushenko(03~06)=85
if 1) is correct, Plushy will be equal dominant as Stojko with same competitor, if 2) is correct, he will be more dominant.

So, the best way......I think, is throwing 03~06 Plushy into the group of "Urmanov, Kulik, Eldredge" to see what will happen......or bring prime Stojko to 03~06.

(furthermore, I really forget why there is a dominance dispute)

[bibi24]

Besides, Stojko has always had close competitions with someone. He battled to win in the end which I don't think that should be called "dominance". Dominance is no competitions.

How do you "blow people out of the water" with 6.0 & ordinals system? You can't get a 10 point lead after SP and win by 20-30 points in the end. Back then everyone was in contention, ie. for the top 3 in SP, whoever won the freeskate won the competition.

3 out of 4 wins in consecutive years at worlds is "dominance".

EDIT: I am not so much disputing who's more dominant, I'll give that edge to Plushenko (because of his early rise and longevity). All I am saying is to disregard Stojko being a "dominate" skater during his time doesn't rub well with me haha

[Tonichelle]

How do you "blow people out of the water" with 6.0 & ordinals system? You can't get a 10 point lead after SP and win by 20-30 points in the end. Back then everyone was in contention, ie. for the top 3 in SP, whoever won the freeskate won the competition.

which means no one was in contention. jumps in rank in the FS (like Lysacek's jump to fourth, and nearly the podium, in 2006 for example) didn't happen in the old system. And if you drew the short straw and went early, well, tough beans to you.

[gmyers]

I don't recall Hamilton saying Goebel deserved Gold... he questioned Plushenko's placement over Tim's, though.

he's also directed to explain why an American didn't win. He has a target audience, and it's not the world. NBC is so strongly anti-Russia that their commentators have to toe the line as much as possible... granted Hamilton comes from the old school - but at teh same time he knows skating and what he likes about it... Plushenko, well, isn't Scotty's cup of tea. He's not alone in that opinion. And his opinion didn't sway people's judgement one way or the other on that matter.

I recently watched and because Yagudin replaced a planned quad with a 3A that meant that Yagudin watered down his program and since it was the only thing Hamilton really talked about it seemed like it was Goebel all the way for him.

[pangtongfan]

Hamilton who began as a reasonable commentator has morphed into a horrific and agenda pushing, extremely biased announcer, so I agree his on air statements as far as who should have won anything matter little. He also never liked Urmanov whatsoever, and was heavily biased to Stojko who was one of his personal friends, so I agree his opinion on any result between them means nothing. However many people after the 94 Olympics felt Stojko should have won. It was as much a talk as the Kerrigan-Baiul and Gritschuk/Platov vs Usova/Zhulin vs Tovill/Dean results in the aftermath. Elvis was also screwed royally at the 92 Olympics where he deserved atleast the bronze. For what it is worth I was never a fan of Stojko's skating and hated his dominance.

Anyway it doesnt matter. Point is both Plushenko and Stojko were dominant skaters, and Plushenko's competitive record is not that far above Stojko's. The only real difference is the Oly Gold really as others said. It would be exciting to see the two together in their primes. Plushenko is the better skater, but he would have his hands full. Stojko was just as much a competitor, if not more.

And if Stojko's main rivals were unstable jumpers who lacked power and attack like Lambiel and Buttle, poor man Stojko clones like Joubert, or up and comers like 06 Takahashi or 06 Lysacek, Elvis in his prime would have been winning events by 25-30 points or with straight 1st place ordinals as well probably. Plushenko was the only one even good enough to win events from 2003-2006 so little wonder he had an easy time, he didnt have anyone to beat once Yagudin was gone. When he didnt win during that period it was someone like Lambiel popping 3 jumps into singles and winning the 2005 Worlds still by 16 points, or Joubert back when he was only a jumper winning Europeans out of the blue after being down in 7th or 8th in the World rankings previously.

[Bluebonnet]

Yagudin was supposed to skate two quads and two 3As. He skated two quads and one 3A. Changed the second planned 3A into 3S, not because Yagudin couldn't do it, but because Yagudin thought it was more than enough. Scott Hamilton said it wasn't enough because Yagudin didn't skate that second 3A, . He thought Plushenko and Goebel could beat Yagudin and said it was a "tough call". It seemed to me that everyone in the audience, everyone in front of the TV, Yagudin himself, and his coach Tarasova all believed that Yagudin has clearly won right after Yagudin's free skate, except Scott Hamilton. And the result proved that everyone was correct but Scott. There was no "tough call" at all. Yagudin got so many 6.0s. Yagudin was actually under-marked in his SP. That was pretty funny. Anti-Russia or not, Scott was definitely wearing a colored nationalism glasses.

[pangtongfan]

Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezic should be assigned to commentating regionals or something. More appropriate for their skill level in the booth. Bezic used to be decent too but is now a dried up old hag with a snotty condescending tone about everything. Button is in his 80s and would still far eclipse both.

[evangeline]

How do you "blow people out of the water" with 6.0 & ordinals system? You can't get a 10 point lead after SP and win by 20-30 points in the end. Back then everyone was in contention, ie. for the top 3 in SP, whoever won the freeskate won the competition.

It's completely possible to "blow people out of the water" under 6.0 and the ordinals system. Someone like Alexei Yagudin at the 2002 Olympics, with straight first-place ordinals (and multiple 6.0s!), blew his competition out of the water and into the stratosphere. Conversely, the original 5-4 split in favour of B/S over S/P in pairs at SLC was a very close decision and certainly did not blow anything out of any aquatic bodies whatsoever.

As for Scott Hamilton at SLC, he was definitely saying that Yagudin had probably conceded the LP to both Plushenko and Goebel.

[Tonichelle]

Put it fully into context - after the pairs debacle, the commentators weren't about to call a winner for the rest of the events. Also consider they had pretty much bagged Yagudin for SOI - Scott has always been notorious in his favoring of his cast of merry skaters. There's no reason to believe he was anti-Yagudin and pro-Goebel. More like overly cautious after the mess he and Sandy caused in the previous event.

[gmyers]

Yagudin was supposed to skate two quads and two 3As. He skated two quads and one 3A. Changed the second planned 3A into 3S, not because Yagudin couldn't do it, but because Yagudin thought it was more than enough. Scott Hamilton said it wasn't enough because Yagudin didn't skate that second 3A, . He thought Plushenko and Goebel could beat Yagudin and said it was a "tough call". It seemed to me that everyone in the audience, everyone in front of the TV, Yagudin himself, and his coach Tarasova all believed that Yagudin has clearly won right after Yagudin's free skate, except Scott Hamilton. And the result proved that everyone was correct but Scott. There was no "tough call" at all. Yagudin got so many 6.0s. Yagudin was actually under-marked in his SP. That was pretty funny. Anti-Russia or not, Scott was definitely wearing a colored nationalism glasses.

I guess I didn't watch recently enough as I got jumps wrong but not the commentary really. LOL.

Also isn't it sad that both Goebel and Honda had near ending injuries in 2004 causing them to miss worlds. So neither could defend their medals.

[pangtongfan]

Only someone devoid of a brain would not know Yagudin's amazing performance, even without the second triple axel, would blow away Plushenko's difficult but rather sloppy performance (with mistakes), never mind Goebel's which didnt even take a first place vote off Plushenko, have a clean triple axel, and had a 5.4 and 5.5 for presentation. There is no defense for Hamilton's stupidity there, nor his stupidity in helping to create the pairs scandal for the highly overrated Sale & Pelletier, but that is another topic.