Ilinykh & Katsalapov switch coaches

CARA · May 19, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
3. As Jammers mentioned, V/M and D/W have been training together since juniors. I do think it takes a particular kind of coach to create the atmosphere, though.

It's rare kind of combination to create collegeal atmosphere for highly comeptitive teams to work together. I've heard the Canton coaches do not tolerate diva attitude. They re no non-sense and encourage hard works.

What I am also impressed is diverse programs they create for their teams. Z/S have been able to tailor choreography unique to each team's strengths and weaknesses. They appear to be more interested in respecting student's individuality than imposing their own ideals of what ice dancing teams ought to be.

In other words, they don't let their egos in a way of helping their students attain their goals, unlike many strong egos that inhabit among the ranks of Russian federation and their coaches. Those are rare qualities indeed. That's why I believe Z/S will continue to enjoy churning out competitive teams. :agree:

P.S.: I'm hoping Krylova/Camerlengo develop another ice dancing dynamo club in N. America

P.S. 2: I wonder how much of the fact that Shpillband's defection from the USSR factors into creating training facility that's unti-Russia, i.e., non-authoritarian, merit-based, internationally minded as opposed to nationalistic/close-minded

dorispulaski · May 19, 2011

CARA said:
P.S. 2: I wonder how much of the fact that Shpillband's defection from the USSR factors into creating training facility that's unti-Russia, i.e., non-authoritarian, merit-based, internationally minded as opposed to nationalistic/close-minded

That is a very interesting speculation, and needs a thread of its own.

let`s talk · May 19, 2011

CARA said:
P.S. 2: I wonder how much of the fact that Shpillband's defection from the USSR factors into creating training facility that's unti-Russia, i.e., non-authoritarian, merit-based, internationally minded as opposed to nationalistic/close-minded

The more I read the speculations like these on various international FS forums, the more I understand why so many Russian posters (don't confuse with Russian speakers, those who immigrated from Russia decades ago) leave/are forced to leave such cyber places to rather newly created cyber places for fair debates, where folks can speak about figure skating actually, rather than politics flavored with chauvinism.

bsfan · May 19, 2011

Jammers said:
D/W and V/M have been training together for years now and it doesn't seem to have affected them at all. In fact both teams have thrived pushing each other to get better.

They are from different countries and won't fight for the position in national team. And I agree that S/Z's handling is exceptional. What about B/A and D/W? or Den/S and Dom/S?

ImaginaryPogue · May 19, 2011

MY understanding was that B/A and D/W were friendly. After all, remember that Belbin and White are dating each other now (confirmed in multiple places). Linichuk didn't have DomShabs when coaching DenStav - DomShabs went after DenStav retired.

let's talk, what is it that bugs you about Cara's point. You bolded defection, but that's been widely reported: Shpilband did defect from the Soviet Union. I don't see how that's "politics flavored with chauvinism."

bsfan · May 19, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
MY understanding was that B/A and D/W were friendly. After all, remember that Belbin and White are dating each other now (confirmed in multiple places). Linichuk didn't have DomShabs when coaching DenStav - DomShabs went after DenStav retired.
"

I was referring to DenStav about their previous coach. Didn't they share the same coach with DomShabs in Russia? Goshkov?

dorispulaski · May 19, 2011

let's talk, would CARA's statement bother you as much, if it were made more clear that Shpilband defected from the USSR, and that the attributes CARA assigned to the USSR apply to that long gone country, not to the Russia of today?

blue dog · May 19, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
MY understanding was that B/A and D/W were friendly. After all, remember that Belbin and White are dating each other now (confirmed in multiple places). Linichuk didn't have DomShabs when coaching DenStav - DomShabs went after DenStav retired.

I don't think that would've bothered either DomShabs or DenStav, since both are friends.

Tonichelle · May 19, 2011

bsfan said:
They are from different countries and won't fight for the position in national team. And I agree that S/Z's handling is exceptional. What about B/A and D/W? or Den/S and Dom/S?

Belbin & Agosto bought into the whole "they've plateaued" so they finally decided to go for a change... problem is that change involved not just a move, but an entire on ice personality change, and it didn't work. Their leaving hurt (Zueva was not as PC as Igor about it) and it backfired, but it wasn't due to any rivalry with Meryl and Charlie (who, as IP stated, was dating Tanith at the time of the split).

Jammers · May 19, 2011

That same mindset of the old Soviet Union is still alive in Russia when it comes to ice dancing and Russia's place in it. It reminds me of the US ladies and how it took so long for US coaches to adjust to the COP and get up to speed with the rest of the world and get the ladies to skate with that scoring system in mind and not the 6.0 system. Change is never easy and Russia is finding that out the hard way.

Serious Business · May 19, 2011

Jammers said:
That same mindset of the old Soviet Union is still alive in Russia when it comes to ice dancing and Russia's place in it. It reminds me of the US ladies and how it took so long for US coaches to adjust to the COP and get up to speed with the rest of the world and get the ladies to skate with that scoring system in mind and not the 6.0 system. Change is never easy and Russia is finding that out the hard way.

While Russian ice dancing isn't doing as great as many Russians want it to be, let's not go nuts and compare it with how the US ladies are doing. US ladies hasn't had a medalist in Worlds/Olympics since 2006, while Russia won in ice dancing as recently as 2009 (and podiumed in Vancouver). Piseev would jump out of a window if Russian ice dancing did as badly as US ladies in the last few years.

seniorita · May 19, 2011

Serious Business said:
Piseev would jump out of a window if Russian ice dancing did as badly as US ladies in the last few years.

I m opening the window..just in case

gmyers · May 19, 2011

A Russian Ice Dance team didn't medal at a worlds in 2006 or 2007. Then K/N won bronze in 2008 and D/S gold in 2009. 2010 and 2011 nothing. In 2006 and 2010 the olympic medalists could have won medals. So really you have 2007 and 2011. So if no team medaled next year that would be bad but it wasn't the team that medaled in 2008 that won worlds the next year it was a different team. But you could say that D/S could have won worlds in 2008 but even so they did not even medal once before they won the whole thing.

Serious Business · May 19, 2011

gmyers said:
A Russian Ice Dance team didn't medal at a worlds in 2006 or 2007. Then K/N won bronze in 2008 and D/S gold in 2009. 2010 and 2011 nothing. In 2006 and 2010 the olympic medalists could have won medals. So really you have 2007 and 2011. So if no team medaled next year that would be bad but it wasn't the team that medaled in 2008 that won worlds the next year it was a different team. But you could say that D/S could have won worlds in 2008 but even so they did not even medal once before they won the whole thing.

That's still miles better than what US ladies did in that time frame.

My real point is that I don't think either Russian ice dancing coaches/choreographers or US ladies coaches/choreographers have failed to adapt to the COP. Russian ice dancing continues to be successful (just not as much), while US coaches/choreographers have great success under the COP in other disciplines. It's just a matter of having the right talent meet the right coach at the right time, which brings us back to what this thread is about.

Many people are saying Morozov isn't that right coach for Elena and Nikita. Whereas in my opinion, Nikita is the bigger problem. If Morozov and his team can make Nikita more comfortable and productive, then the move to Morozov would likely be a huge success. But if I/K continue to underperform under Morozov, the problem could still be Nikita, not Morozov.

Ptichka · May 19, 2011

Tonichelle said:
Belbin & Agosto bought into the whole "they've plateaued" so they finally decided to go for a change... problem is that change involved not just a move, but an entire on ice personality change, and it didn't work. Their leaving hurt (Zueva was not as PC as Igor about it) and it backfired, but it wasn't due to any rivalry with Meryl and Charlie (who, as IP stated, was dating Tanith at the time of the split).

Granted, I'm no fan if Linichuk & Karponosov, but I'm not sure it backfired. What do you think would have happened at the Olympics had they stayed in Detroit?

silverlake22 · May 19, 2011

Serious Business said:
Many people are saying Morozov isn't that right coach for Elena and Nikita. Whereas in my opinion, Nikita is the bigger problem. If Morozov and his team can make Nikita more comfortable and productive, then the move to Morozov would likely be a huge success. But if I/K continue to underperform under Morozov, the problem could still be Nikita, not Morozov.

Hasn't it been said that Nikita is actually the better skater of the two though? I don't think I agree with that, and think Elena is both a better performer AND skater than Nikita, but it seems like that is not the opinion of most people.

Mathman · May 19, 2011

Ptichka said:
Granted, I'm no fan if Linichuk & Karponosov, but I'm not sure it backfired. What do you think would have happened at the Olympics had they stayed in Detroit?

I think Toni's point is that they would have remained true to themselves and not have come out onto Olympic ice wearing silly-looking angel wings. Who were they trying to be, Alexei Urnanov?

Whether this would have been enough to put them ahead of Linichuk & Karponosov's favored team, the mock savages, is not clear. But they could have kept their pride.

doubleflutz · May 20, 2011

silverlake22 said:
Hasn't it been said that Nikita is actually the better skater of the two though? I don't think I agree with that, and think Elena is both a better performer AND skater than Nikita, but it seems like that is not the opinion of most people.

I think when he's not nervous, he has better skating skills than she does. But Elena is a much better competitor, so she's the better skater when it matters. Honestly, the Russians need to suck it up and send them to Zueva and Shpilband. Not because of any political influence hooey, but because I bet the best thing to make Nikita straighten up, fly right, and put his shoulder to the wheel would be being on the ice with Scott Moir, Charlie White, and especially Alex Shibutani every day.

Tonichelle · May 20, 2011

Mathman said:
I think Toni's point is that they would have remained true to themselves and not have come out onto Olympic ice wearing silly-looking angel wings. Who were they trying to be, Alexei Urnanov?

Whether this would have been enough to put them ahead of Linichuk & Karponosov's favored team, the mock savages, is not clear. But they could have kept their pride.

exactly, they didn't improve in their standings at all, and lost what we loved about them - their personalities. Yeah, Tanith's technique improved, but so what? no one seemed to care that mattered.

dorispulaski · May 20, 2011

In many ways, B&A as a team were caught between two different sports: Ice Dancing pre COP and Ice Dancing post COP.

B&A were put together as a team in the pre-COP age, when Tanith's height and long legs were a huge advantage, but also when posture, toe point, extension, and diva attitude were (IMO excessively) rewarded. Tanith was criticized in that era's esthetic for a limited range of expression (She had two: O face, and Let's Get Loud I'm having fun face) and posture and toe point issues, and what the Z&S skaters were always criticized for: having worse CD's than OD's or FD's.

Post COP, and especially after the extra lifts, and more/tougher criteria for +3 GOE and level 4, were added to the rules, B&A suffered. Tanith's height and leg length were harder on Ben's back, perhaps, too. Certainly, he developed back problems. They were unable to do the range of lifts that D&W and V&M were able to do. And although their CD's improved under Linichuk, their OD and FD dropped.

What Linichuk did for them was work on their preCOP problems, but those pluses were not significantly rewarded post COP, accounting mostly for some tenths in the PCS department.

Oddly, they probably should have stayed in this year, because the precision they acquired in the Golden Waltz would have been rewarded in the SD, I suspect. And they made a lovely waltz couple. And Linichuk gave P&G a really nice waltz-this is something she definitely knows how to do.

It is funny that it took abolishing the CD's to get Z&S teams to learn how to do at least 8 points of the Golden Waltz exactly as described :laugh:

Ilinykh & Katsalapov switch coaches

CARA

dorispulaski

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let`s talk

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bsfan

ImaginaryPogue

bsfan

dorispulaski

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blue dog

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Tonichelle

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Jammers

Serious Business

seniorita

gmyers

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Ptichka

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silverlake22

Mathman

doubleflutz

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

dorispulaski

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