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Thread: Ilinykh & Katsalapov switch coaches

  1. #91
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    That same mindset of the old Soviet Union is still alive in Russia when it comes to ice dancing and Russia's place in it. It reminds me of the US ladies and how it took so long for US coaches to adjust to the COP and get up to speed with the rest of the world and get the ladies to skate with that scoring system in mind and not the 6.0 system. Change is never easy and Russia is finding that out the hard way.
    While Russian ice dancing isn't doing as great as many Russians want it to be, let's not go nuts and compare it with how the US ladies are doing. US ladies hasn't had a medalist in Worlds/Olympics since 2006, while Russia won in ice dancing as recently as 2009 (and podiumed in Vancouver). Piseev would jump out of a window if Russian ice dancing did as badly as US ladies in the last few years.

  2. #92
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Piseev would jump out of a window if Russian ice dancing did as badly as US ladies in the last few years.
    I m opening the window..just in case

  3. #93
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    A Russian Ice Dance team didn't medal at a worlds in 2006 or 2007. Then K/N won bronze in 2008 and D/S gold in 2009. 2010 and 2011 nothing. In 2006 and 2010 the olympic medalists could have won medals. So really you have 2007 and 2011. So if no team medaled next year that would be bad but it wasn't the team that medaled in 2008 that won worlds the next year it was a different team. But you could say that D/S could have won worlds in 2008 but even so they did not even medal once before they won the whole thing.

  4. #94
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    A Russian Ice Dance team didn't medal at a worlds in 2006 or 2007. Then K/N won bronze in 2008 and D/S gold in 2009. 2010 and 2011 nothing. In 2006 and 2010 the olympic medalists could have won medals. So really you have 2007 and 2011. So if no team medaled next year that would be bad but it wasn't the team that medaled in 2008 that won worlds the next year it was a different team. But you could say that D/S could have won worlds in 2008 but even so they did not even medal once before they won the whole thing.
    That's still miles better than what US ladies did in that time frame.

    My real point is that I don't think either Russian ice dancing coaches/choreographers or US ladies coaches/choreographers have failed to adapt to the COP. Russian ice dancing continues to be successful (just not as much), while US coaches/choreographers have great success under the COP in other disciplines. It's just a matter of having the right talent meet the right coach at the right time, which brings us back to what this thread is about.

    Many people are saying Morozov isn't that right coach for Elena and Nikita. Whereas in my opinion, Nikita is the bigger problem. If Morozov and his team can make Nikita more comfortable and productive, then the move to Morozov would likely be a huge success. But if I/K continue to underperform under Morozov, the problem could still be Nikita, not Morozov.

  5. #95
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Belbin & Agosto bought into the whole "they've plateaued" so they finally decided to go for a change... problem is that change involved not just a move, but an entire on ice personality change, and it didn't work. Their leaving hurt (Zueva was not as PC as Igor about it) and it backfired, but it wasn't due to any rivalry with Meryl and Charlie (who, as IP stated, was dating Tanith at the time of the split).
    Granted, I'm no fan if Linichuk & Karponosov, but I'm not sure it backfired. What do you think would have happened at the Olympics had they stayed in Detroit?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Many people are saying Morozov isn't that right coach for Elena and Nikita. Whereas in my opinion, Nikita is the bigger problem. If Morozov and his team can make Nikita more comfortable and productive, then the move to Morozov would likely be a huge success. But if I/K continue to underperform under Morozov, the problem could still be Nikita, not Morozov.
    Hasn't it been said that Nikita is actually the better skater of the two though? I don't think I agree with that, and think Elena is both a better performer AND skater than Nikita, but it seems like that is not the opinion of most people.

  7. #97
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    Granted, I'm no fan if Linichuk & Karponosov, but I'm not sure it backfired. What do you think would have happened at the Olympics had they stayed in Detroit?
    I think Toni's point is that they would have remained true to themselves and not have come out onto Olympic ice wearing silly-looking angel wings. Who were they trying to be, Alexei Urnanov?

    Whether this would have been enough to put them ahead of Linichuk & Karponosov's favored team, the mock savages, is not clear. But they could have kept their pride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Hasn't it been said that Nikita is actually the better skater of the two though? I don't think I agree with that, and think Elena is both a better performer AND skater than Nikita, but it seems like that is not the opinion of most people.
    I think when he's not nervous, he has better skating skills than she does. But Elena is a much better competitor, so she's the better skater when it matters. Honestly, the Russians need to suck it up and send them to Zueva and Shpilband. Not because of any political influence hooey, but because I bet the best thing to make Nikita straighten up, fly right, and put his shoulder to the wheel would be being on the ice with Scott Moir, Charlie White, and especially Alex Shibutani every day.

  9. #99
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think Toni's point is that they would have remained true to themselves and not have come out onto Olympic ice wearing silly-looking angel wings. Who were they trying to be, Alexei Urnanov?

    Whether this would have been enough to put them ahead of Linichuk & Karponosov's favored team, the mock savages, is not clear. But they could have kept their pride.
    exactly, they didn't improve in their standings at all, and lost what we loved about them - their personalities. Yeah, Tanith's technique improved, but so what? no one seemed to care that mattered.

  10. #100
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    In many ways, B&A as a team were caught between two different sports: Ice Dancing pre COP and Ice Dancing post COP.

    B&A were put together as a team in the pre-COP age, when Tanith's height and long legs were a huge advantage, but also when posture, toe point, extension, and diva attitude were (IMO excessively) rewarded. Tanith was criticized in that era's esthetic for a limited range of expression (She had two: O face, and Let's Get Loud I'm having fun face) and posture and toe point issues, and what the Z&S skaters were always criticized for: having worse CD's than OD's or FD's.

    Post COP, and especially after the extra lifts, and more/tougher criteria for +3 GOE and level 4, were added to the rules, B&A suffered. Tanith's height and leg length were harder on Ben's back, perhaps, too. Certainly, he developed back problems. They were unable to do the range of lifts that D&W and V&M were able to do. And although their CD's improved under Linichuk, their OD and FD dropped.

    What Linichuk did for them was work on their preCOP problems, but those pluses were not significantly rewarded post COP, accounting mostly for some tenths in the PCS department.

    Oddly, they probably should have stayed in this year, because the precision they acquired in the Golden Waltz would have been rewarded in the SD, I suspect. And they made a lovely waltz couple. And Linichuk gave P&G a really nice waltz-this is something she definitely knows how to do.

    It is funny that it took abolishing the CD's to get Z&S teams to learn how to do at least 8 points of the Golden Waltz exactly as described
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-20-2011 at 10:09 AM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    In many ways, B&A as a team were caught between two different sports: Ice Dancing pre COP and Ice Dancing post COP.

    B&A were put together as a team in the pre-COP age, when Tanith's height and long legs were a huge advantage, but also when posture, toe point, extension, and diva attitude were (IMO excessively) rewarded. Tanith was criticized in that era's esthetic for a limited range of expression (She had two: O face, and Let's Get Loud I'm having fun face) and posture and toe point issues, and what the Z&S skaters were always criticized for: having worse CD's than OD's or FD's.

    Post COP, and especially after the extra lifts, and more/tougher criteria for +3 GOE and level 4, were added to the rules, B&A suffered. Tanith's height and leg length were harder on Ben's back, perhaps, too. Certainly, he developed back problems. They were unable to do the range of lifts that D&W and V&M were able to do. And although their CD's improved under Linichuk, their OD and FD dropped.

    What Linichuk did for them was work on their preCOP problems, but those pluses were not significantly rewarded post COP, accounting mostly for some tenths in the PCS department.

    Oddly, they probably should have stayed in this year, because the precision they acquired in the Golden Waltz would have been rewarded in the SD, I suspect. And they made a lovely waltz couple. And Linichuk gave P&G a really nice waltz-this is something she definitely knows how to do.

    It is funny that it took abolishing the CD's to get Z&S teams to learn how to do at least 8 points of the Golden Waltz exactly as described
    Your analysis on B&A pretty much spot on. I interviewed them prior to OWG and Belbin said the most difficult aspect of the new IJS dance rules was the emphasis on complicated lifts. This was something they really never developed during their earlier career - working instead on interesting footwork. Ben developed back problems as a result of working on new lifts so it seemed clear that 2010 would likely be their last competitive season.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-20-2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason: fix my spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    let's talk, what is it that bugs you about Cara's point. You bolded defection, but that's been widely reported: Shpilband did defect from the Soviet Union. I don't see how that's "politics flavored with chauvinism."
    Oh, please... who cares who immigrated where. No, it was her comment that pro-Russia means nationalistic and closed-minded. Lovely to hear it from someone who is "broad-minded" enough that still doesn't know that the Soviet Union and Russia are not synonyms, and in fact never were, unless in some poorly-educated texbooks.
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    let's talk, would CARA's statement bother you as much, if it were made more clear that Shpilband defected from the USSR, and that the attributes CARA assigned to the USSR apply to that long gone country, not to the Russia of today?
    Unlikely. The whole rant about the USSR being nationalistic and close-minded and the US being the opposite at the time of Cold War or right after is funny enough to bother to comment. Only a truly ignorant nationalist wouldn't know that both countries were full of propagandistic ****
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 05-20-2011 at 11:00 AM. Reason: cute, but let's not bypass the censor.

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    Elena is currently exercising her creating writing on formspring.me. There she claims that the decision to switch coaches was only her and Nikita's, and neither the Federation nor Tarasova had anything to do with that.
    On a sidenote, her replies to people there is a textbook of a flame war sauced with teen rudeness. I will research her masterpieces later for my future online applications.

  14. #104
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    The famous journalist Elena Vaitsekhovskaya published a bit on this in her blog. Essentially, she said she wouldn't be publishing an interview with Zhulin and Katsalapov because it's mainly just dirt that's already been rehashed. She then, however, has this piece which I though it worthwhile to translate:

    "I don't really blame Lena and Nikita. Throughout our whole phone interview three days ago where he voiced all things that have since been published in several places, I was bothered by something else. I was bothered by Nikita's last sentence. As I was wrapping up, I told him that it seems to be inherently wrong when the coach finds out about his student's training changes not from the athletes but from journalists or the newspaper. I though Nikita was a bit embarrassed. He then said, "You see, I agree it's not really proper. But the federation told us not to worry about it. They said we should just train and not think about anything else. They said the federation would inform Zhulin of everything."

    Cool, right? Adults have magnanimously taken the heavy decision of the little ones' shoulders. Almost... Now, though, it's the latter who're getting all the dirt thrown at them. And what? They do deserve it, right?"

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    Expectations for I&K were very high, perhaps unjustly so high that even I&K believed in their PR - always a costly error. I don't think anyone outside of the training situation can attribute blame for their somewhat unexciting senior debut. But airing discontent in the media is not the best way to improve anyone's image. So my advice to I&K is to take stock of their strengths and work on their weaknesses - and be better prepared for next season.

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