Ashley Wagner and Caroline Zhang ? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ashley Wagner and Caroline Zhang ?

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
I think Nagasu, Czisny, Agnes, and maybe Gao are the main skaters to contend for the 2 spots on next years World Team. I would be shocked if any of Flatt, Wagner, let alone Zhang (LOL) make it. By 2014 there could be some new contenders as well, some of the names talked about in this thread.

BTW Zhang not even qualifying for Nationals wouldnt surprise me and I agree she quits soon. It doesnt matter if she fixes her weaknesses and makes them somewhat competent anymore, she doesnt even have any strengths any longer. Her once dazzling spins are quite mediocre based on what I saw of her last season, she no longer hits particularly pretty positions or has the cute factor of any sort, I guess her spirals are still pretty good and that is it. She has nothing now really, even if she does an ok triple flip vs the horror it used to be. And she is slower than ever.

I disagree Czisny is on the way out in the U.S yet as that would imply there are any skaters who can win a medal at Worlds. There arent really, other than maybe the enigmatic Nagasu, and Czisny is the next best bet for now. Gao and Zawadzki both have alot of improvements to make before they can be near a medal at the Senior Worlds. It isnt even certain the U.S will have a strong medal contender by 2014 considering the Russians, Kim, Japanese, and possibly other Europeans.
 
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silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
I disagree Czisny is on the way out in the U.S yet as that would imply there are any skaters who can win a medal at Worlds. There arent really, other than maybe the enigmatic Nagasu, and Czisny is the next best bet for now. Gao and Zawadzki both have alot of improvements to make before they can be near a medal at the Senior Worlds. It isnt even certain the U.S will have a strong medal contender by 2014 considering the Russians, Kim, Japanese, and possibly other Europeans.

Regarding Czisny, I meant more by 2014, she'll likely be done/not a medal threat. Next season, I don't think we'll see any US ladies on the Worlds podium, except for maybe Mirai if she steps it up. I agree about Agnes and Christina, but do think that there is a chance they COULD become medal contenders by 2014, maybe even 2013, but next season is probably too soon, especially considering how Kanako fared at Worlds this season when no one really skated well. Maybe one of the younger girls will step it up and come out of nowhere to become a threat by 2014, but again too soon to tell.
 

pangtongfan

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I still think Czisny could make the 2014 U.S Olympic team. I agree she wont be a big medal threat (she isnt even now really) but she could make the team. If she is anything more than the #3 U.S lady though it will probably mean the U.S isnt strong contenders.

It is funny to see how even someone like Makarova has sort of passed Murakami when she was so far behind her as juniors. Murakami has some real work to do too. I am not sure how great the Japanese future is looking since Ando will be too old soon (and if she takes a year off I doubt she will come back), Asada looks sort of washed up already, and Murakami is not progressing that well.
 
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pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
I feel sorry for Wagner in anyway. She will be remembered as the girl who was always overshadowed by Flatt, Nagasu, and Zhang. OK she is is well above Zhang the last 2 years but that means nothing when Zhang is way down there now. Zhang's principal achievements in the sport such as her World Junior Gold and two Silvers still easily eclipse anything Wagner has done. There was always alot of expectations around her but she was never quite good enough, and it would be a miracle if she ever attains them now.
 

Layfan

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Nov 5, 2009
With most of the focus and attention geared towards Alissa, Mirai, Rachael, and the newbies. I started thinking about Ashley and Caroline. Do you think these two have a chance to make the podium at next years nationals and possibly be selected for the national team for the 2012 Worlds ?

Nope.

I've seen the two of them fail to improve and in Caroline's case dramatically deteriorate for too long to hold out much hope.

But neither of them seem to be giving up and so if they prove me wrong I will be thrilled for them!
 

silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
I still think Czisny could make the 2014 U.S Olympic team. I agree she wont be a big medal threat (she isnt even now really) but she could make the team. If she is anything more than the #3 U.S lady though it will probably mean the U.S isnt strong contenders.

It is funny to see how even someone like Makarova has sort of passed Murakami when she was so far behind her as juniors. Murakami has some real work to do too. I am not sure how great the Japanese future is looking since Ando will be too old soon (and if she takes a year off I doubt she will come back), Asada looks sort of washed up already, and Murakami is not progressing that well.

Murakami is still so young though, and she did really well for herself this season except for at NHK (her senior debut and 1st competition of the season) and Worlds (when she was probably burnt out). Japan also has a lot of young promising skaters such as Risa Shoji who has all the triples, 3s-3t, 2a-3t, high PCS, and is very consistent in landing her jumps (though URs are an issue) and is not even 15 yet. Then there is Miyabi Oba who has 3s-3t and 2a-3lo and was great at JW, and she was only 3rd at junior nationals. And then you never know if Nishino or Fujisawa, etc could have a comeback. I'm not too worried about ladies skating in Japan, it's always been strong and I'm sure that will continue to be the case. I will say that I think Suzuki is done though, as Mao and Kanako always seem to beat her even when they don't skate their best.
 

Tinymavy15

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I feel sorry for Wagner in anyway. She will be remembered as the girl who was always overshadowed by Flatt, Nagasu, and Zhang. OK she is is well above Zhang the last 2 years but that means nothing when Zhang is way down there now. Zhang's principal achievements in the sport such as her World Junior Gold and two Silvers still easily eclipse anything Wagner has done. There was always alot of expectations around her but she was never quite good enough, and it would be a miracle if she ever attains them now.

yes, it is sad because she really had it all. She was very musical, more so than Racheal i think and often had a lot of speed and power, with nice big jumps and beautiful spins. She just never seems to pull it together at Nationals. and when she does make a mistake, it seems to hurt her more than some of the other girls.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
Murakami is still so young though, and she did really well for herself this season except for at NHK (her senior debut and 1st competition of the season) and Worlds (when she was probably burnt out). Japan also has a lot of young promising skaters such as Risa Shoji who has all the triples, 3s-3t, 2a-3t, high PCS, and is very consistent in landing her jumps (though URs are an issue) and is not even 15 yet. Then there is Miyabi Oba who has 3s-3t and 2a-3lo and was great at JW, and she was only 3rd at junior nationals. And then you never know if Nishino or Fujisawa, etc could have a comeback. I'm not too worried about ladies skating in Japan, it's always been strong and I'm sure that will continue to be the case. I will say that I think Suzuki is done though, as Mao and Kanako always seem to beat her even when they don't skate their best.

Suzuki will never be a top skater at the World level so the Japanese really dont have any reason to invest in her. She was a nice underdog story, making the Olympics and having her best ever success in her mid 20s, but that is the end of the story me thinks.
 

pangtongfan

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yes, it is sad because she really had it all. She was very musical, more so than Racheal i think and often had a lot of speed and power, with nice big jumps and beautiful spins. She just never seems to pull it together at Nationals. and when she does make a mistake, it seems to hurt her more than some of the other girls.

Yeah for sure. It seems she is either screwed by the judges or she misses something, or something always keeps her down from those others. She is probably one of the unluckiest skaters in recent memory. It is a shame but I cant imagine it happening for her now. I think she is already past her peak a bit, and based on this years Nationals the judges are already forgetting about her.
 
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The mention of Suzuki above, and I might add Abbott as another late bloomer, is reason enough not to write off Ashley just yet.

I'm less hopeful about Caroline because her technical problems seem to be more intractable but also because it doesn't look as though she's in a good place mentally.

I hope they both have productive summers and come back with fight and good programs.
 

Layfan

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Nov 5, 2009
The mention of Suzuki above, and I might add Abbott as another late bloomer, is reason enough not to write off Ashley just yet.

I'm less hopeful about Caroline because her technical problems seem to be more intractable but also because it doesn't look as though she's in a good place mentally.

I hope they both have productive summers and come back with fight and good programs.

Another reason not to write off Ashley is how unpredictable the other U.S. women are at the moment. You just can't know for sure that the top five from last season's nationals will be top five at this season's. At this point, I'd bet on a few other girls above Ashley but it's conceivable that she will step up to the plate next season while others fade or falter when it counts most.

At this point, though, I don't see hear as world podium material or even potential at all. She has too many flaws and not enough wow. But we'll see. As you said, there are such things as late bloomers and she is certainly a very watchable skater.
 
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R.D.

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Jul 26, 2003
At this point, I'd bet on a few other girls above Ashley but it's conceivable that she will step up to the plate next season while others fade or falter when it counts most.

I suppose it IS, in theory...but Wagner is usually the one sabotaging herself and enabling her competitors to take advantage of the situation. If Wagner had not fallen in her 2010 Nats SP, she would have gone to the Olympics, not Nagasu- even if they skated the same. If Wagner had not blown the SP AGAIN this year, she would have been right in the mix- but she wasn't. The main thing getting in the way of Wagner right now, despite all her flaws, is Wagner.
 

Serious Business

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Ashley has some problems with her basics, too. Very labored stroking. She obviously has many other talents, but it hasn't added up to a winning package yet and it may never.
 

silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
One big difference between Ashley and Caroline is that Ashley will likely get 2 GP assignments next season while Caroline will likely get none (does not meet minimum score so only hope is SA which will likely go to someone else, maybe Ashley if she only gets 1 other assignment). I don't think Mama Zhang will like Caroline having to qualify for nationals the old-fashioned way so I assume after this season Caroline calls it quits.
 

silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
Suzuki will never be a top skater at the World level so the Japanese really dont have any reason to invest in her. She was a nice underdog story, making the Olympics and having her best ever success in her mid 20s, but that is the end of the story me thinks.

Sort of like the Japanese version of Alissa, when you think of it. Which is why I'd like to see Alissa compete in Sochi if we have 3 spots for ladies, even if she does finish 8th or so like Akiko did last season.
 

chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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Akiko Suzuki is 26 years old. She was 8th at the Olympics and 11th at Worlds 2010.

Alissa will be 27 in 2014. As of this year, she has competed at 10 US Senior Ladies Championships---every year since 2002. I'm not sure she will continue on as far as Sochi.
 

R.D.

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Jul 26, 2003
If Zhang quits, then she didn't really have the mental toughness to begin with, anyway.
 

silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
Yes, just like Alissa quit after having to qualify for Nationals. :sheesh:

There's a difference. Alissa had to do sectionals but also had 2 GP assignments. This season, Caroline will likely have no GP assignments. Also, Alissa's mother is no match for Mama Zhang.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
I suppose it IS, in theory...but Wagner is usually the one sabotaging herself and enabling her competitors to take advantage of the situation. If Wagner had not fallen in her 2010 Nats SP, she would have gone to the Olympics, not Nagasu- even if they skated the same. If Wagner had not blown the SP AGAIN this year, she would have been right in the mix- but she wasn't. The main thing getting in the way of Wagner right now, despite all her flaws, is Wagner.

Wagner did not exactly blow the SP this year. She had one two foot landing and that was it. She would have only been 6th in the short even with a clean short, and very far behind the scores of the top 3, and already been right out of it.
 
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