Mirai Nagasu

same reason why yeonah won't (can't?) fix her toe-point? cuz you get no points for it? ah, don't ya just love COP?

to me mirai's layback is not even close to ideal. angela nikodinov has the best, hands down. if mirai had the time to spare after perfecting her jump technique to the level of yeonah kim's, she could aim for a sasha-level layback, or even an ashley wagner level layback--she has the flexibility for it. her back is bent way back--but there is such a thing as too far--and it's not in balance with her leg position--the turn out and foot are just blah. and it's not like she's mk whose back flexibility is painfully deficient (only apparent on laybacks and a few other moves). it's apparent because there's a lot of refinement and grace in a lot of mirai's skating--overall i rank mirai way ahead of angela nikodinov in appeal, but sometimes the praise for her layback along with the praise for alissa's plastered grin and alissa's poorly extended spiral makes me wonder if i need new bifocals. but hey, variety is the spice of life, whatever floats your boat. if i never see another COP program, my life won't feel the least bit incomplete--i have my old tape library where dorothy skates to paquita not flailing her arms like a bird trying to fledge from the nest.

Yo skfan, I’m really happy for you and I'mma let you finish. But Sasha Cohen had the best layback of all time.

^
womp womp!

Serious Business said:

Yo skfan, I’m really happy for you and I'mma let you finish. But Sasha Cohen had the best layback of all time.

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Sasha's biellman paled in comparison to Mirai's, which is another thing which set's Mirai's layback apart from Yuna's. She has a bent freeleg too, but it's not nearly as bad/ugly/distracting as Yuna's freeleg position in her layback. How she gets any more than +1 for that spin is beyond me...

skfan said:

to me mirai's layback is not even close to ideal. angela nikodinov has the best, hands down.

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I think they meant "Top 3 in the World, Amateur Status", but I don't disagree with you.

Serious Business said:

Yo skfan, I’m really happy for you and I'mma let you finish. But Sasha Cohen had the best layback of all time.

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AHAHAHAHAHA. First thing I've laughed at since I've woken up. Oh man.

silverlake22 said:

Sasha's biellman paled in comparison to Mirai's, which is another thing which set's Mirai's layback apart from Yuna's. She has a bent freeleg too, but it's not nearly as bad/ugly/distracting as Yuna's freeleg position in her layback. How she gets any more than +1 for that spin is beyond me...

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Sasha knew how to work that bent free-leg though. I feel that hers had a more ethereal quality to it as well. She had that flowy-thing going on while Yuna's is like, "Whoooooo! Ugly leg, but I'll spin really fast to make up for it!"

So you can judge for yourselves:
Yuna's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ku7tbUehVg&t=01m30s
Sasha's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YafMZNrx2_8&t=01m30s
Mirai's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RIDpUGdMPM&t=01m50s
(*Side note: Mirai got a Level 4 and +3GOE all across the board for this spin, so I'm not sure why skfan says she needs to fix it)


ETA: I read the posts after skfan's. I see what he means now.

The +'s awarded to spins are based on many criteria, only one of which is a "good position". And while some may prefer one over another, I don't think either Yuna, Sasha or Mirai remotely deserve the - for "poor/awkward position(s)". The +'s are given for things like speed/acceleration, centering a spin quickly, control and other things. Unless the ISU changes the rules dramatically regarding spins, Mirai deserves +++ every time she executes her layback correctly (she can flub it though when she loses focus).

Do I personally love everything about Mirai's layback/biellmann? Nope. But if I was a judge, I'd give her +++ for it every time unless she screws up. My tiny bit of nitpickery is that her hands are all clawed, and she sometimes leaves her arm(s) pointed totally straight. But that should have no bearing on her score under current COP rules, and she makes it work for her.

Layfan said:

Pirates was good. Maybe you're right about Lori being better SP choreographer, although I didn't like Mirai's SP this season. I hated that flower thing she had to do in the middle of it.

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I thought she was playing with bottles and was mixing her potions there , i loved this part, I hope she keeps the Sp, the Lp I dont remember how it went right now, but a nice change would be Miyamoto or Camerlengo, though he is crowded this season also.

skfan, you think Alissa's spiral is poorly extended??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2lUKlKO0UU&feature=player_detailpage#t=173s

Alissa has a lovely Y-spiral, and she gets her leg nice and high for her normal spiral and she shows good turn out, but if you view that arabesque spiral from the front you might notice that her leg tends to have a slight bend at the knee and that she has a little bit of a "sideabesque" in that her leg does not quite point straight up to the ceiling and her body twists a bit towards that side. This surprises me, because after years and years of ballet training I'd expect Alissa would be capable of a nice, square split, and I would expect that to translate to the ice, but apparently it hasn't. She has a nice spiral, but it's not all the way there and her extension could be better.

Edit~ you'll want to watch the spiral in the actual program, not the replay, in your link as the camera angle in the replay doesn't catch the imperfections as the back of her knee faces the camera. The replay does show her fantastic turn-out.

silverlake22 said:

Sasha's biellman paled in comparison to Mirai's, which is another thing which set's Mirai's layback apart from Yuna's. She has a bent freeleg too, but it's not nearly as bad/ugly/distracting as Yuna's freeleg position in her layback. How she gets any more than +1 for that spin is beyond me...

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Mirai may have better speed and centering for the biellmann, but I think position-wise, Sasha's biellmann was far superior. Mirai's beillmann is still beautiful, but it's more of a display of her flexibility like, "look at me and how far I can put me head back almost to my butt."

MoonlightSkater said:

Alissa has a lovely Y-spiral, and she gets her leg nice and high for her normal spiral and she shows good turn out, but if you view that arabesque spiral from the front you might notice that her leg tends to have a slight bend at the knee and that she has a little bit of a "sideabesque" in that her leg does not quite point straight up to the ceiling and her body twists a bit towards that side. This surprises me, because after years and years of ballet training I'd expect Alissa would be capable of a nice, square split, and I would expect that to translate to the ice, but apparently it hasn't. She has a nice spiral, but it's not all the way there and her extension could be better.

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Doesn't it also also depend on the edge? Here is Michelle on an inside edge.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wan_Spiral.jpg/250px-Michelle_Kwan_Spiral.jpg

Outside edge.

http://wiki.nus.edu.sg/download/att....jpg?version=1&modificationDate=1299743406193

I think most skaters can achieve amplitude only by rolling their hips.

Nicole Bobek.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/543555/0_61_bobek.jpg

Alissa from the front (outside edge). I think this is pretty good.

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Alissa+Czisny+Trophee+Eric+Bompard+ISU+Grand+3cPQq7fI6tPl.jpg

Sasha can square up better but only at the cost of a lower upper body position.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Sasha_Cohen_2009_SOI_Halifax_Spiral.jpg

I would be flabbergasted to see a skater do this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eDlSpXKLki8/SjBJK002RxI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/3hEvrvb4KCg/s400/arabesque1.jpg

Mathman said:

I would be flabbergasted to see a skater do this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eDlSpXKLki8/SjBJK002RxI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/3hEvrvb4KCg/s400/arabesque1.jpg

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You mean like this?
http://lovetheice.tumblr.com/post/1051770801/toewalley-dapperderp-evan-lysacek-and-nastia
I think she's even pointing her toes! Then again, aren't gymnasts supposed to do that anyway?

camion said:

but it's more of a display of her flexibility like, "look at me and how far I can put me head back almost to my butt."

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I thought that was the point of bielman anyway

In Alisa ´s arabesque it looks to me that from her waist up her position is awkward, like she is doing the airplane position to keep balance, it has no strength or stretch her hands and no arch her back, and thats my problem with her skating in general, not very strong upper body. The other spiral is great!
I think the best positions in spirals, that look effortless graceful, is Mao´s.

aftertherain said:

You mean like this?
http://lovetheice.tumblr.com/post/1051770801/toewalley-dapperderp-evan-lysacek-and-nastia
I think she's even pointing her toes! Then again, aren't gymnasts supposed to do that anyway?

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Great Photo!!!

seniorita said:

:

In Alisa ´s arabesque it looks to me that from her waist up her position is awkward, like she is doing the airplane position to keep balance, it has no strength or stretch her hands and no arch her back, and thats my problem with her skating in general, not very strong upper body. The other spiral is great!
I think the best positions in spirals, that look effortless graceful, is Mao´s.


Great Photo!!!

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Mao has close to the same effortless and beautiful stretch that Sasha had.

But I thought one of the nicest moments of the season this year was shown by Alissa in her LP when she did a gorgeous change of position in her spiral sequence. I thought no other lady came close to equaling that moment of elegance and everytime I saw it I heard the crowd ooh and ah with delight.

Geez, I neve buy these comments that Alissa is anything less than graceful and beautiful on the ice.

Could she use more attack on her jumps? I guess so.

Could she give up the wonderfully musical steps for the CoP "bee down my back" look?

I guess so....but then it would not be Alissa.

Czisny has a lot of fans on the boards.

To me, she seems a bit too calculated and structured in her performances.

I mean, she showed a WHOLE different side of her during the worlds exhibition. She loosened up a lot, didn't know she could be such a tease.

Maybe she needs to be stiff in order not to screw up during competition, and in that case, I'm all for it. But when it comes to debating how "graceful" or "beautiful" she is on the ice (or whether she is that at all)- I'm gonna have to disagree with most.

Hernando said:

Geez, I neve buy these comments that Alissa is anything less than graceful and beautiful on the ice.

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I dont think that kind of adjectives are debatable, each to their own. I find Mirai effortless graceful, Alica graceful at moments only. I prefer Alica's exhibitions. But she certainly is beautiful and also her big comeback this season from a disaster last season was an emotional peak, the triumph of the athlete who insists for me.

The most appealing thing about Alissa's skating to me is her ease. She's very smoooooth in her movements which, in turn, really helps her skating flow beautifully. But in terms of speed, power, difficulty...she's at the lower end. However, she's just beautiful to watch and she's capable of casting a really lovely spell when she skates the way she skated this past season...

Back to the spins, I agree with the vote for Angela Nikodinov in terms of classic layback position. Her's was probably the best. However, I still think the 2006-2008 Caroline Zhang had a gorgeous layback (I point to those years b/c it's really not as good as it used to be)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fybVmT77mY&feature=player_detailpage#t=228s

In terms of speed, back position, centering, turn out of the free leg, it was untouchable. And then Caroline's ability to transition into those insane positions and right up into a Biellmann was fantastic. To me, she was the best spinner in the field for about two seasons.

Sasha's layback was the best for a while there, along with her spirals and extension too. Those were her claim to fame because, although she was incapable of skating cleanly, she had spins and spirals that were exclusive to her. Her layback had a good back position and, though she bent her leg, it was still extended at an angle and she kept her toe pointed and turned out which created a softer line. Yu-Na could benefit from that method, seeing as how turn out and extension are probably the weakest areas of her skating. Of course, as I said: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Though Yu-Na's leg position is very weak, her speed, centering and back position are very good, plus she's improved the quality of her Biellmann in the last year (it's more oval than "O" shaped).

Michelle didn't have the best free leg position in her spins either. When she began, she held her free leg the way Yu-Na holds hers now except she had a slight turn out at the toe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NSasshi36I&feature=player_detailpage#t=103s

In 2000, she worked with Evelyn Kramer (sp?) who they called the "Spin Doctor". There was a noticeable improvement in the height, position and turn out on the free leg of Michelle's layback...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgBDzGUf5ts&feature=player_detailpage#t=46s

That next year though, she had a back injury and had to tweak the position again, this time to one that hid her weaker leg position by keeping it closer to her body, but showcased better speed, centering and back position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2D9DDQxwIk&feature=player_detailpage#t=123s

That's the one she stuck with for the rest of her career, and it worked for her. Then again, I always liked the layback position in this spin (the 2nd position)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzwPtPmdSOY&feature=player_detailpage#t=202s

Maintaining speed probably would have been an issue, but it was still nice. It's all about making what you have work for you...though I'll admit, I'm much more impressed by a classic layback position than I am these amended versions. For instance, I haven't seen one of the newer Russian babies who has a good classic layback position. Ksenia Makarova's the only Russian lady I can point to that has some semblance of a good classic position (a decently extended/turned out free leg)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erj9t8nnk0s&feature=player_detailpage#t=174s

And possibly Julia Lipnitskaya, who doesn't have a good free leg but at least has a good backwards leaning back position and a completely "sick" Biellmann..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DlQqRP6jZ4&feature=player_detailpage#t=162s

The rest of the girls' "laybacks" are kinda eyesores IMO. Harshly angled legs and upper body twists, and close-to-leg backward catch foots...and poorly positioned Biellmanns (except Polina Shelepen, who has a gorgeous Biellmann).

Liza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRs4rNVrb_s&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s
Adelina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joyyk5bN4jE&feature=player_detailpage#t=147s
Polina Shelepen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0_Kc3W_PFc&feature=player_detailpage#t=197s

None of them seem capable of a good old fashion layback...it's a bit sad. :disapp: Somebody please point me in the direction of a good layback!

^ thats a great spins data post!

seniorita said:

^ thats a great spins data post!

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I does what I cans...:

Back to Mirai, whom I love love love, I agree with whoever said her layback was not that great (regardless of how it racks up pointwise). Compared with Sasha, Mirai has a more bent working leg, less turnout in the thigh, and worst of all no foot point. That flexed foot really detracts from the beauty of the spin.

Sasha at around 2:49:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELFerA2QZX8

Mirai at around 1:26:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hRxiDmuV0U

With regard to other skaters, I really don't like seeing a layback with the thighs close together and with the free leg turned in - besides being less attractive and classic, it looks vastly easier. Do they tend to get deducted for that?