Daisuke Takahashi Talks About The Worlds And The Future

Jammers said:

Why did Shizuka not do her 3-3 combo's in her LP in Torino? If she had her performance that night might have been one of the epic skates to win an OGM. Instead it just felt like she did just enough to win but nothing to be remembered years later.

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She didnt even need to do a triple-triple If she had just done 6 or 7 triples instead of 5 with no triple-triples it would have been more memorable. She didnt even skate clean with what she had left, doubling a triple loop which was a major error.

pangtongfan said:

I agree. Without 2 events of her career Shizuka is Jennifer Robinson with more talent. I cant ever think of her as a legendary or even really a great skater. A very good one who happened to peak at the right time at both a Worlds and an Olympics and capatilize on the favorites either being missing, ailing, or self destructing.

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Without two events in Yuna's career we could say she was nothing more than a good Grand Prix skater.

Problem with that type of logic (or lack of it) is obvious. Yuna has a WC and OGM and so does Shiz.

Lots of this has to do with time and circumstances,health/injury status and other factors.

I can watch Kati, Tara and then I watch Shizuka. There is no doubt in my mind who was the more talented skater.

The comparison between eras is never easy but I agree with Olympia on this.
If Shizuka wasn't the most consistent skater she was certainly a memorable skater when she was on.

And she never had a block of judges voting her into higher finishes than what she earned on the ice.

Reading comments from pangtong fan I see a constant evaluation based on gold medals. His/her constant trashing of Sasha shows that to be true.

Trash Sasha all you want because your opinion makes no difference at all. Sasha was a memorable skater and I would have to say Shizuka is too.

As a fine technical skater with beautiful presentation skills I find Shizuka very memorable and like Kristi, she became even better as a Pro.

I will always remember Shizuka as one of the most talented and beautiful skaters I ever saw.

Since I first reported Nobunari Oda's knee injury in this thread, I might as well update on his recovery here too.

Nobu tweeted today to say his doctor gave his a go ahead and he will now resume on-ice training. Great news! (By the way, he also tweeted that he had left his wallet in Shinkansen train to Tokyo, but a kind passenger handed it over and he got it back. Oh, Nobu...)

mot said:

Nobu tweeted today to say his doctor gave his a go ahead and he will now resume on-ice training. Great news! (By the way, he also tweeted that he had left his wallet in Shinkansen train to Tokyo, but a kind passenger handed it over and he got it back. Oh, Nobu...)

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Good to hear Nobu is recovering well ....and why am I not surprised to hear about his wallet

Hernando said:

Good to hear Nobu is recovering well ....and why am I not surprised to hear about his wallet

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Yes, he seems quite...forgetful...

SkateSkates said:

Yes, he seems quite...forgetful...

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Yes, but unlike the world champion Nobu has a killer 3A.

Hernando said:

Without two events in Yuna's career we could say she was nothing more than a good Grand Prix skater.

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Incredibly poor comparision. Yu Na without her Olympic and World gold wins would still have a World medal at every Worlds she competed in, 3 Grand Prix final titles, many international wins. Her career would far and away eclipse someone like Sasha Cohen even without her World and Olympic Gold.

Shizuka is basically a journeywomen except for 2 big wins. Only qualified for the Grand Prix final twice (skated one other time as an alternate), won only 1 other international event her whole career, won Japanese Nationals only 2 times- and never once they became a power, has no other finishes higher than 8th at Worlds.

Problem with that type of logic (or lack of it) is obvious. Yuna has a WC and OGM and so does Shiz.

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And Yu Na has overall dominance over the sport, WR scores, the most consistency of anyone of her era (never off the podium in any event since she turned senior). There is no comparision between the two skaters at all.

Lots of this has to do with time and circumstances,health/injury status and other factors.

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Actually that is what Shizuka's two big wins were mostly based on, as well as having the performance of her life in the LP at the 2004 Worlds.

I can watch Kati, Tara and then I watch Shizuka. There is no doubt in my mind who was the more talented skater.

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You cant compare a skater from the 80s until today. It is pointless. Tara retired at 15 so never reached her peak. What did Shizuka look like at those same Olympics at 16 (ugh). And Tara's Nagano Olympic winning performance would crush Shizuka's Turin Olympic winning performance under either system. Michelle Kwan is much more artistic and complete than Shizuka and did 2 more triples in Nagano than Shizuka in Turin, and still lost to Tara, so draw your own conclusions.

Trash Sasha all you want because your opinion makes no difference at all. Sasha was a memorable skater and I would have to say Shizuka is too.

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And your opinion makes no difference at all as well. Most people dont consider Sasha a champion since she never won a big title and constantly dissapointed. That said she still left more of a legacy on the sport than Shizuka did, I will admit to that much. Sasha atleast is still talked about some today, just not as a great champion like Kwan, Slutskaya, Kim, and others. This is one of the first times I have seen Shizuka even brought up in atleast 3 years now.

pangtongfan said:

. Most people dont consider Sasha a champion since she never won a big title and constantly dissapointed. That said she still left more of a legacy on the sport than Shizuka did, I will admit to that much. Sasha atleast is still talked about some today, just not as a great champion like Kwan, Slutskaya, Kim, and others. This is one of the first times I have seen Shizuka even brought up in atleast 3 years now.

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Maybe you have a selective memory because I have read lots of posts about Shizuka at GS.

I still remember this skate and have rarely seen it's equal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xzGdVragbo

Don't praise Tara for "a skate of her life" and then call it luck when Shiz did the same thing. It doesn't work that way.

Results count. :yes:

And Shizuka's jumps (which actually leave the ice and cover distance) make Tara look like a junior skater.

If you think GP's are the same thing as WC's you obvioulsy have never competed much. Alissa is a GPF champion and so is Sasha.

It is not the same as being world champion.

Shizuka has plenty of fans for the way she skates and for being a wonderful ambassador for skating and Japan.

Hernando said:

Don't praise Tara for "a skate of her life" and then call it luck when Shiz did the same thing. It doesn't work that way.

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Tara was no one hit wonder. Tara won the Grand Prix final twice, Worlds, the Olympics, U.S Nationals over Kwan. Discounting the season she was only 13 years old in the 5 major events Tara was in she placed 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 1st, and went an incredible 4-1 vs the Michelle Kwan, maybe the greatest skater ever. She packed alot more into a couple years a senior skater as Shizuka was able to do in almost a whole decade.

Results count. :yes:

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Read above then.

Tara btw will forever be in record books as the youngest World and Olympic winner ever, and the one who broke the great Henies record ever to do that. Shizuka will be the first from her country to win the Olympics, lots of skaters are the first from their country to do something.

And Shizuka's jumps (which actually leave the ice and cover distance) make Tara look like a junior skater.

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Tara at 14 and 15 years old reeled of 7 triple programs with an incredibly difficult triple loop-triple loop in over half the programs she did. She did more 7 triple programs than most skaters in a decade long career.

There is more to jumps than height and amplitude, although that is nice to have. Tara has virtually perfect positions and rotation in her jumps, and the landings are perfectly secure with flow out each time. Shizuka probably would be the better jumper if she were as consistent, but she is about 20% as consistent a jumper as Tara so it doesnt matter. And if Shizuka is such an amazing jumper how does Sasha Cohen easily best her in jump GOE for their clean jumps in most of their head to head COP competition, the Olympics is the only time this wasnt the case.

If you think GP's are the same thing as WC's you obvioulsy have never competed much. Alissa is a GPF champion and so is Sasha.

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I never said they were the same thing. However Kim would still have an amazing career with so many other World medals, 3 Grand Prix final titles, and many other international wins even without her Olympic and World title. If you think that is the same as Shizuka's career of 8th, 9ths, and 13ths at Worlds and Olympics, almost no international wins and a slew of other poor finishes, and 4 years of not even making the World team for her country while they werent winning any medals, you are in an alterior universe of sorts.

It is not the same as being world champion.

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You have no point really. I dont think you even know you are trying to argue at this point. The only skater we even talked about who isnt a World Champion is Sasha who you also have been trying to defend. I have already explained how the careers of Kim and even Tara are totally different than Shizukas, so for you to be the one to keep making comments like results matter really makes no sense.

Shizuka has plenty of fans for the way she skates and for being a wonderful ambassador for skating and Japan.

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I am sure she has fans, she is a nice skater and ambassador at home and all, but she isnt a legend in the sport. She isnt even really one of the leading skaters of her couple generations, but put it together at the right time to win a couple big events and allow herself to become a valuable enoguh commodity to skate professionally (which before Turin even as a World Champion she wasnt as she herself admited) and be one of hundreds of names that fill out the record books, but not one that will stand out in the crowd. If you think she is the greatest thing since sliced bread though go right ahead.

^^

Sorry but I must disagree with much of what you wrote.

If you think Tara's jumps are equal to Shizuka's we will just leave it at that.

Landing 7 triples and a triple loop-triple loop combination in most long programs you do make Taras jumps overall better than nearly everyones no matter how small and unimpressive they might be. That is what you win competition after competition with. It doesnt matter if Shizuka's landed jumps are better than Tara if she only comes close to clean long programs with that kind of content 4% of the time. If Shizuka were as consistent as Tara skating clean long programs with triple-triples of course she would be the better jumper. That is not even close to reality though.

Regardless what you think of Taras skating she also won the Olympics by beating a clean 7 triple Kwan, and while it was probably Taras best skate ever in her very brief career, it wasnt that much better than about 6 other long programs she also did those 2 seasons. Could Shizuka have ever managed that (beating a clean 7 triple Kwan anywhere, let alone such a major event).

Anyway like I already said you are comparing a mid 20s Shizuka to 15 year old Tara. How did a 15 year old Tara compare to a 16 year old Shizuka. If you even saw Shizuka skate in Nagano you should be able to appreciate how incredible it is for people like Tara, Kim, and Kwan to be at that level already so young.

pangtongfan said:

Landing 7 triples and a triple loop-triple loop combination in most long programs you do make Taras jumps overall better than nearly everyones no matter how small and unimpressive they might be. That is what you win competition after competition with. It doesnt matter if Shizuka's landed jumps are better than Tara if she only comes close to clean long programs with that kind of content 4% of the time. If Shizuka were as consistent as Tara skating clean long programs with triple-triples of course she would be the better jumper. That is not even close to reality though.

Regardless what you think of Taras skating she also won the Olympics by beating a clean 7 triple Kwan, and while it was probably Taras best skate ever in her very brief career, it wasnt that much better than about 6 other long programs she also did those 2 seasons. Could Shizuka have ever managed that (beating a clean 7 triple Kwan anywhere, let alone such a major event).

Anyway like I already said you are comparing a mid 20s Shizuka to 15 year old Tara. How did a 15 year old Tara compare to a 16 year old Shizuka. If you even saw Shizuka skate in Nagano you should be able to appreciate how incredible it is for people like Tara, Kim, and Kwan to be at that level already so young.

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One of the things I admire most about Shiz is that skating did not necessarily come easy to her. She worked, struggled and got better with age.

Tara was done before she matured and even without injuries would never, ever have survived puberty. Sorry, but her teenie, weenie jumps were never going to happen once she weighed more than 60 pounds. Not to mention her edges.

I think Tara was a great young skater but she retired after Nagano. Even if she had managed her training and health better she was never going to be a factor after she grew.

Shizuka may not be spoken of as a legend over here, but I'd imagine they're considerably more excited about her in Japan.

To me she's a charming skater, and whether she makes it onto some list is generally not something I think about. But then, I'm a fan of Alissa Czisny, so that should say something about what I look for in skating. Heck, I'm even over on the spin thread praising Lucinda Ruh, and she never made the top ten at a world championship.

I certainly agree with you about Kwan, which should be no surprise. I'm interested in the points you make about Tara's jump positions. I'll have to go back and watch her programs and look for that.

One of the most dominant skaters of the last quarter century was Katarina Witt, but I never found her very riveting to watch as an eligible skater. (I liked her as a person and thought she brought a lot to pro skating, though. I'm very fond of that core Stars on Ice group.) So dominance in and of itself doesn't necessarily boost a skater to the top of the pyramid for me.

Olympia said:

Shizuka may not be spoken of as a legend over here, but I'd imagine they're considerably more excited about her in Japan.

To me she's a charming skater, and whether she makes it onto some list is generally not something I think about. But then, I'm a fan of Alissa Czisny, so that should say something about what I look for in skating. Heck, I'm even over on the spin thread praising Lucinda Ruh, and she never made the top ten at a world championship.

I certainly agree with you about Kwan, which should be no surprise. I'm interested in the points you make about Tara's jump positions. I'll have to go back and watch her programs and look for that.

One of the most dominant skaters of the last quarter century was Katarina Witt, but I never found her very riveting to watch as an eligible skater. (I liked her as a person and thought she brought a lot to pro skating, though. I'm very fond of that core Stars on Ice group.) So dominance in and of itself doesn't necessarily boost a skater to the top of the pyramid for me.

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I like that you referred to Shizuka as a "charming skater."

I feel that way about alot of lady skaters and Chen-Lu comes to mind and there are too many others to list.

By 2006 skating was really on it's way out in the USA. Had Shizuka won in '94 she would have been as much the rage at ice shows as Oksana was.

Timing has alot to do with our perceptions.

Hernando said:

One of the things I admire most about Shiz is that skating did not necessarily come easy to her. She worked, struggled and got better with age.

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That's one of the things I enjoy most about Shizuka, too. There's a maturity and even a majesty to her skating. And I love that she was able to preserve her skills into her mid-twenties. A lot of the supposed prodigies we've had recently don't make it to seventeen, and Shizuka topped that by more than half a decade. She may still have the triple-triples for all I know.

In her ability to bloom long and late, she reminds me a bit of another favorite skater, Yuka Sato, though their styles are very different. Yuka has just one world medal (the 1994 World gold), but she stands out to me both as an eligible skater and as a pro. And she even learned pairs skating sometime in her late twenties! I agree with you about Chen Lu also, Hernando.

This talk of Shizuka's performance at the 06 Olympics makes me wonder why people are trashing Miki for winning Worlds this season with a 5 triple FS with no 3-3s when Shizuka won the Olympics in 06 by doing the exact same thing. In both cases, such skates were only enough because others performed poorly, but still. Both skaters are more than capable of doing 3-3s but opted out of trying them in their programs, and are known mainly as being technicians/jumpers even though they both have many other nice qualities to their skating, and yet most people don't seem to have an issue with Shizuka winning Olympic gold or the way she skated at that event but it seems like everyone and their mother thinks Miki winning Worlds this year was wrong and her skating there a joke... I feel like I'm the only one on this board who actually likes Miki, think her skating is about far more than just her jumps, and thinks she deserved to win Worlds considering Kim made some big boo-boos and Kostner had novice content in her programs.

silverlake22 said:

This talk of Shizuka's performance at the 06 Olympics makes me wonder why people are trashing Miki for winning Worlds this season with a 5 triple FS with no 3-3s when Shizuka won the Olympics in 06 by doing the exact same thing.

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Shizuka is a much better all around skater than Miki. Miki is a superior jumper. Miki is expected to do more jumpwise to win since that is essentialy all she is, a jumper.

pangtongfan said:

Shizuka is a much better all around skater than Miki. Miki is a superior jumper. Miki is expected to do more jumpwise to win since that is essentialy all she is, a jumper.

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I wouldn't say Miki is a better jumper than Shizuka, and I wouldn't say Shizuka is a better all around skater than Miki. I think they are actually pretty comparable in both respects. Shizuka had a killer ina bauer but never showed much emotion in her skating, and Miki has improved her overall skating a whole lot since the 2006 Olympics to the point where her spins and flexibility are quite good and her presentation elegant, sort of like Shizuka. And she gets high PCS because she's consistent and has been a contender on the world stage for the last 5 years at least.

silverlake22 said:

I wouldn't say Miki is a better jumper than Shizuka, and I wouldn't say Shizuka is a better all around skater than Miki. I think they are actually pretty comparable in both respects. Shizuka had a killer ina bauer but never showed much emotion in her skating, and Miki has improved her overall skating a whole lot since the 2006 Olympics to the point where her spins and flexibility are quite good and her presentation elegant, sort of like Shizuka. And she gets high PCS because she's consistent and has been a contender on the world stage for the last 5 years at least.

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"Empress Shizuka" had a regal bearing on the ice. Alot of fans thought "Cleopatra" was comical.

Miki is a step above Flatt. Her posture and positions can't even begin to compare with Shiz.

I like Miki but don't think she is in Shizuka's class as an all around skater.

silverlake22 said:

I wouldn't say Miki is a better jumper than Shizuka, and I wouldn't say Shizuka is a better all around skater than Miki. I think they are actually pretty comparable in both respects. Shizuka had a killer ina bauer but never showed much emotion in her skating, and Miki has improved her overall skating a whole lot since the 2006 Olympics to the point where her spins and flexibility are quite good and her presentation elegant, sort of like Shizuka. And she gets high PCS because she's consistent and has been a contender on the world stage for the last 5 years at least.

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To each their own. I find nothing remotedly elegant about Miki's skating even today. Nor do I find her spins quite good, her layback imparticular is still tragic. I do agree she gets high PCS because shes consistent and been around a long time. Shizuka was not consistent and did have many years near the top and still got high PCS, higher relative to her peers than Miki when she skated well in fact, so that should tell you something.