Who thinks like me that the ISU should require the 5 types of jumps in the FS | Golden Skate

Who thinks like me that the ISU should require the 5 types of jumps in the FS

coolboogie22

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Who thinks that the ISU should require the 5 types of jumps in the FS

I begin to be tired in the ladies field, that the skaters do not take risk, and only do The Easiest jump to gain and save GOE.

Who believes like me that the ladies should in the long program, do the 5 types of jumps, regardless of whether it would be a double or a triple,
I think if the ISU would put this rule, the competition will be more interesting and will really shows the best ladies skater :)

Who thinks like me ? =)
 
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prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I think all the standard triples are a valuable skill that every skater should demonstrate or attempt (5 for the ladies--if a lady can do a 3A, she may replace it for one of the others; certainly 6 of the standard triples for the men). Actually, I personally believe that no repeated standard jump should be given credit unless all them are included/attempted in a program.

I don't know how it would be best implemented into the IJS. Should they add bonuses to create extra incentive? Should there be certain penalties for not doing so? What about edge issues, underrotations, falls, pops, etc.? And how much should these incentives or penalties amount to? Tricky issue to tackle.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It's not a question of penalties. It's a Flip jump. Since the names of the jumps come from it's take off, the ISU should insist on clear and proper take offs or consider the attempt a total failure. Switching edges, Rotating and Landing like a Flip should be considered against the Zayak Rule.

There is nothing wrong with leaving the Lutz out of the program.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Which of the ladies did not attempt all five non-Axel takeoffs as either a double or a triple? Not Yuna---just to pre-empt that argument that I'm sure is gonna start again. :rolleye: She did a double loop.

Look at the top ten free skates at Worlds.

Skaters who did not attempt all five non-Axel take-offs as either doubles or triples:

*Miki Ando did not attempt either a triple flip or double flip in the entire competition.

*Carolina Kostner did not attempt the Lutz.

*Alissa Czisny did not attempt the Salchow.

*Ksenia Makarova didn't attempt a Lutz.

*Elene did not attempt either a Salchow or Flip.

Skaters who attempted all five non-Axel take offs as doubles or triples:

* Mao Asada - flutzer (but she attempted a 3A)

* Kanako Murakami - flutzer

* Alena Leonova - flutzer

* Kiira Korpi

* Yu-na Kim

Well what do you know...only two skaters attempted all five non-Axel take offs as either doubles or triples without questionable edges, and one of them gets a big flack for omitting one particular triple. :rolleye:
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I think it's a good rule. If you can't do a certain kind of triple, then you should have to put a double of that jump in your program, instead of repeating another type of triple or a 2a.
 

Tanja90

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Which of the ladies did not attempt all five non-Axel takeoffs as either a double or a triple? Not Yuna---just to pre-empt that argument that I'm sure is gonna start again. :rolleye: She did a double loop.

Look at the top ten free skates at Worlds.

Skaters who did not attempt all five non-Axel take-offs as either doubles or triples:

*Miki Ando did not attempt either a triple flip or double flip in the entire competition.

*Carolina Kostner did not attempt the Lutz.

*Alissa Czisny did not attempt the Salchow.

*Ksenia Makarova didn't attempt a Lutz.

*Elene did not attempt either a Salchow or Flip.

Skaters who attempted all five non-Axel take offs as doubles or triples:

* Mao Asada - flutzer (but she attempted a 3A)

* Kanako Murakami - flutzer

* Alena Leonova - flutzer

* Kiira Korpi

* Yu-na Kim

Well what do you know...only two skaters attempted all five non-Axel take offs as either doubles or triples without questionable edges, and one of them gets a big flack for omitting one particular triple. :rolleye:

Carolina until last year was one of the few to attempt all 5 jumps...This year she didn't do the lutz because of the injury...

Btw I like your statment and I agree with you but I wouldn't count on double jumps. I a girl can do all doubles it doesn't mean that she can do all triples so IMO the bonus should go to the girl who attempt all triples jumps successful!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think it's a good rule. If you can't do a certain kind of triple, then you should have to put a double of that jump in your program, instead of repeating another type of triple or a 2a.

I will go further in the case of a lutz. If you can't take off on the defined back outside edge, leave the entire jump out of the program. It's better than having two Flips in the program.
 

SkateSkates

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think this is a great idea, but I think that it would be very hard to restrict skaters from repeating certain jumps, so the bonus for skaters attempting all jumps is more appropriate. Yes, the take-off is how a flip/lutz is defined, but I would rather see a skater at least go for the jump rather than omit it because they can't hold the correct edge for 1 more fraction of a second. This, along with the 2 double axel rule per program, would really encourage the younger skaters to get all of their triples, and reward skaters for taking the risk. Perhaps another bonus could be added if a skater completes a program without any wrong edge calls? This would also encourage the skaters to do the right technique on their flip/lutz jumps.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
I don't know if attempt if actually in the regulations of jumps. And who determines if it is an attempt or a deliberate partial credit strategy?

Most Flutzes are not by accident but a deliberate way to get additional points. I contend the skaters who can not do a proper lutz, will never be able to do a proper lutz. American and Japanese Ladies are most culpable of taking advantage of the laxity in scoring a true lutz.
 

coolboogie22

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
I remember when there was Sasha Cohen, Irina slutkaya, Shizuka Arakawa, Michelle Kwan. And I think that those skaters make the past competition more interesting than today, because all the women incorporated the 5 types of triple jumps in their programs.
Today, I wish they could put a rule for forcing women to do the 5 types of jumps, because I think it would be interesting to see Yu-Na Kim make a triple loop, that Miki Ando and Cynthia Phaneuf make a triple flip again, that Carolina make the triple lutz, that Elene make the triple flip etc.

The skaters that I enjoy the most these days is Mao Asada, Mirai Nagasu and Joannie Rochette because they tried to show that they are able to be the best figure skater cause they trying the 5 triple jumps in their program. :)
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Many of novice girls can do a combo like 2A-2T-2Lo. I don't see any merit to treat such a thing as an excuse for a "top" skater who can't do the 3loop. If the purpose of this rule is encourage skaters to increase their technical repertoires, only "attempted triples" should be considered. And if it's a "bonus" proposal, only successful cases should be rewarded.
 
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cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Many of novice girls can do a combo like 2A-2T-2Lo. I don't see any merit to treat such a thing as an excuse for a "top" skater who can't do the 3loop. If the purpose of this rule is encourage skaters to increase their technical repertoires, only "attempted triples" should be considered. And if it's a "bonus" proposal, only successful cases should be rewarded.

or someone like a World champion who didn't do 3flip. :rolleye:
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
or someone like a World champion who didn't do 3flip. :rolleye:

World champion with no 3f, world silver with no 3lo, world bronze with no 3lz. And all 3 skaters only completed 5 triples in their free programs. Pretty discouraging, eh? The worst part is we all KNOW those three skaters can all do the jump they chose to leave out...
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
World champion with no 3f, world silver with no 3lo, world bronze with no 3lz. And all 3 skaters only completed 5 triples in their free programs. Pretty discouraging, eh? The worst part is we all KNOW those three skaters can all do the jump they chose to leave out...

i'm just saying that NMURA is singled out yuna for not doing 3loop when you have other skaters are doing the same thing.. :rolleye: At least Yuna did her 3-3 (hardest combo during worlds) which I don't think it's discouraging. :p
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Require? No. I have no interest in seeing a double jump outside of the axel or as part of a combination. And truthfully, I don't think it helps the program overall to have all five triples. Kim's 2010 Olympic LP was gorgeous without the loop and I'm not convinced that Phaneuf's programs would benefit from a flip (though she would, obviously)

Reward? Absolutely. Mastery of all types of triples displays a unique, specific skill that should be rewarded. But only fully rotated, properly "edged" triple jumps. To give a bonus (the equivalent to the average of the BV of the triple jumps (which comes out to 4.94, so that might be too high) will encourage this. I think this alongside a proper evalutation of combinations (aka, a 3Lz+3T combo > 3lz solo + 3T solo) would definitely be beneficial/honest for jump/jump progress.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^^
Your key word: 'mastery' is what they should show and especially proper take offs so we can know the jumps which are be executed. No 'attempts' can be considered as mastery. I would love to have seen a Triple Toe Wally but no Lady can do that so that it is not on the list of base values. I bet Plushenko could.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I still like my idea of points for triple jumps being measured by how many different triples the skater does. So that the first triple gets X number of points, the next different triple gets a little more, the next different triple a little more etc. This would reward skaters with more different jumps and recognize that the same jumps aren't equally difficult for all skaters.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Require? No. I have no interest in seeing a double jump outside of the axel or as part of a combination. And truthfully, I don't think it helps the program overall to have all five triples. Kim's 2010 Olympic LP was gorgeous without the loop and I'm not convinced that Phaneuf's programs would benefit from a flip (though she would, obviously)

Reward? Absolutely. Mastery of all types of triples displays a unique, specific skill that should be rewarded. But only fully rotated, properly "edged" triple jumps. To give a bonus (the equivalent to the average of the BV of the triple jumps (which comes out to 4.94, so that might be too high) will encourage this. I think this alongside a proper evalutation of combinations (aka, a 3Lz+3T combo > 3lz solo + 3T solo) would definitely be beneficial/honest for jump/jump progress.

I think this statement is the one I'd go with. Skating has become quantitative enough! We're going to end up with a bunch of robots skating to a checklist. Pogue's approach will reward good technicians and careful learning but will leave wiggle room for skaters who bring something special to the feast but who may have a weak jump for some reason (such as an injury). I love a good all-around skater--one of my favorite tapes on YouTube is the collection of Arakawa's triple-triples, which use an impressive number of different jump combinations. But there are other heartstopping skaters such as Yamaguchi (no Salchow most of the time) whom I'd hate to do without.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
More required elements in the LP?

Given the current demands of CoP, I don't think you want to see skaters try their weakest jump in their programs. Their choreography and performance already suffer enough nowadays from all the rules and requirements.

Just pile on more nerve wracking requirements by forcing them to do their weakest jump. I think there's a reason only skaters like Rachael Flatt can consistently do all five non-Axel triples under the demands of CoP. Be careful what you wish for.
 
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