What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
My 2011-2012 Ice Dance Daze

This took some sorting out..:biggrin:



Well, I've been waiting for Pogue to start his" What Will 2012 Bring Us In.". threads,( hey, no pressure..);) and then I saw Back Stage Barbie's Pre-season Chatter thread , which I plan to respond to, at least in part ... but mostly, it's the dance scene that has my head spinning, so I thought I'd start this in the meantime.

I didn't think the Ice Dance scene could get more mind boggling than last year..and then there were the splits , retirements and changes on the coaching scene … and here we go again.
I'm eager to see how the young teams that moved up last year follow up this year.

Overall, I think the Rhumba /Latin theme in the SD leaves the door open for a lot of bad interpretations. I love Latin music , but I feel even more ambivalent about the SD this year than last.

The Shibs..( I'm definitely ready for more of what they've got. ) I'm imagining a more playful , dance-til-you-drop SD from them, rather than stressing sex appeal ,which could wind up being very refreshing this year. And There's a lot of good music from Sun Valley Seranade for their FD. I'm expecting good things.

Weaver / Poje .. because they'd been held back from world's for a couple of years , 2011 was like a second debut for them .I hope their FD has a more sophisticated concept ( I'm not sure what to think of their FD music..a lot will depend on the variation in the arrangement ) . I expect they will starting out with the wind already in their sails, and I'm sure they can bring the sizzle to their SD.

Ilinykh / Katsalapov ..I truly don't know what to expect. Their talent is undeniable , but I didn't think a lot of their material last year. This year.. generally , I'm not a fan of the use of Ave Maria in skating and I don't know who's doing their choreo..but I'm not generally a fan of Morozov's. I thought they made the mistake of trying to be too different in the SD last year .. this year , if it's Morozov, I'm afraid I might find it too ... well , I can't help thinking of the heavy-handed “sexy” stuff he's done for Miki, Florent, Javier ..I'll just have to wait and see , but I don't feel comfortable. To me Morozov has not been good at recognizing where something goes beyond sexy to just crude and vulgar.

Riazanova / Tkatchenko (sp?)..I loved their Sviridov SD last year, but felt their FD was a dud. I like them as a couple , and having had another year growing together, they could make things interesting .If their Sviridov FD brings out the qualities we saw in last year's SD , I/K could face quite a challenge from them. Don't know what to expect from their SD, at all...but I can certainly imagine her in Latin mode .

Paul / Islam... I'm so glad they'll fully have a chance to compete this year. I can hardly contain my curiosity to see these two , for 2 main reasons : 1. Every time I've seen them, they've shown a marked improvement over the last time , and I've no reason to think this early season will be any different, according to reports I've heard so far. 2 . I'm completely smitten with their music choices, especially for the SD ( sophisticated, distinctive,different..but unmistakably the proper rhythms ) , and I think there's a lot to like in the Elton John FD music as well. With SD choreo from Haguenauer (with whom they've worked before...and a very nice program it was ) and Wilson for their FD , I expect a mature , stylish presentation from them.I think they're a very balanced couple , right down to the level of intesity they each carry into a program.

Of the newly formed couples, I'm really looking forward to Hubbell / Donohue . Their FD is to “ I Put a Spell on You “ and apparently that's just what they did to all those who saw them this summer … including the judges. This could be good.

I'm still so numb over the S/B split ( I saw them as probable future World Champions ) that I have no sense of what to expect of them with their new partners. We'll see Chock / Bates at SC , but maybe not until their respective Nationals for Samuelson / Gilles and Gilles / Poirier, and there's no word of a partnership for Vanessa Crone , yet . I find it hard to work up much excitement until I see them.

I'm quite looking forward to Zhiganshina / Gazsi.. sounds like they have a more serious FD this year. Cappelini / La Notte ... I hope they can bounce back ,but it still sounds like a scattered coaching situation to me.
Bobrova / Soloviev could have an inspired choice in “Walpurgis Night “ for their FD. I can see her completely in that role. Light, airy, flirtatious..it could be great.

I can't say I feel Ralph /Hill have made good choices in either dance but since it's very early, I'll just hope for improvement. I don't think the rhumba works very well at that tempo, plus .. unless they're toned down ,the gyrations ( and lower lip biting )will cross the vulgarity line. Costume too naked for Kharis. There's still time for refinement. And FD.. Tango is so difficult to carry off well or believably , unless you have a natural affinity for the dance , or are skaters of the highest calibre ( see D/W ) it won't show you to your best advantage.
Strangely, Harvey/Gagnon who were very close to R/H at Canadians last year , have a challenged SD as well ..I just don't think a faster rhumba works ... it may fit into another 4/4, but unless it's a distinct rhumba..it's kind of flat. Their FD has some nice moves, but was still a bit rough at BCSS. Tarah's SD costume didn't say “Latin “ at all. In my mind, these are the 2 teams ( this year ) that will need to watch out for the emergence of G/P at Canadians ..and for Orford / Williams steaming up from Juniors.

I still think Virtue /Moir and this year's champions ( Ta Da!) Davis/ White will be pretty unassailable at the top of the heap. We can trust that V/M's SD will be fabulous ,and I'm curious to see D/W's..they say it has a hip-hop feel. Hmmmm ( could be fun... could be a bit of a divergence from straight latin ?). OTOH their FD sounds like a return to their strength , while V/M's FD is a bit of a mystery til we know what pieces they're using from Funny face. I know we can trust it will be good, but there's a lot of different things they could do with it.

Pechalat / Bourzat are maybe the biggest question mark for me.. I loved last year's programs.. but don't know what to think about their “ Pharaoh and Mummy “ FD.. often I've felt they got lost in their most theatrical programs..so I'm a bit anxious for them. There's a lot of hot talent on their heels. If they're ever going to medal it would be lovely if they could do it in France.

That's what's puzzling my puzzler , what about you ?
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:biggrin:Pogue..As you can see, I've been in a fog.. Now that you mention it, I seem to remember vaguely...maybe I couldn't begin to sort my thoughts when your thread was first up..If anyone wants to bump yours up and add mine in , that would be good, too.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Thanks, Doris...:laugh: I have to laugh at myself..Of course I remember this thread..just not what it was called ..:laugh: ( oh, break out the Ginko !)
 

alithia

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
The open russian test skates start tomorrow and it will be very interesting to see what programs, and especially FDs the russian teams have this season.I was so sure that most of the teams will opt for balroom/dancey routines and the music selections especially from Europe show the exact opposite.(I have to say though,that my secret hope was that they'll resist and we'll get some variety)
I'm not sure that we'll know exactly what team does what and how competitive they are, unless we get some good fan videos.Taking into account that it's more like an exhibition format this season,it will be interesting to see which team's fans get the tickets :p

The couple I'm more worried about right now is Capellini/Lanotte.If they don't improve on speed,and programs,they'll be dumped,although there is hope being Italy's number 1 team right now.The judges have dumped them before,and if they don't do some critical changes they'll have no problem doing it again...I actually liked them and thought that they'd have a totally different career when they first came into seniors,but they recycle lifts,they change coaches a lot and they haven't found their style yet,or to put it better,I feel that have left the style that best suits them."Triavata" was beautiful.

For some reason,I expect Zhiganzina (sp?)/Gazsi to do pretty well this season,maybe get into top 5 in Euros as well.

Pechalat/Bourzat are a big question mark for me.They have to compete against V/M twice, and if I'm not mistaken,against D/W as well.Plus,they'll have to face I/K, their former training mates at Bombard.They can either make a statement by getting close to V/M and D/W and show they're contenders,or it may even cost them the European title.
I have no problem imagining an all Russian podium at Euros this season,it could be done,especially if something goes wrong for P/B.But Worlds are in Nice, and that's another story.I like P/B but last season and this coming one reminds me of F/S when the 2010 Worlds were in Turin.Somehow I just can't see the judges sticking with them all the way to Sochi.
What I really want to see is if the two top Canton teams remain so far away in marks from the other teams.Something tells me that we will have a few surprises in that domain...
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Firstly, I completely agree with you about Cappellinni/Lannotte. They are in the worst position they could be in. Despite their best performance at Worlds ever (8th), Morosov isn't known for his egalitarian coaching. Given that I/K are clearly gonna get a real push this season, I definitely see C/L getting shunted aside in that camp. Last season was so depressing for them (for me)

Like you, I have a really hard time imagining the judges dumping P/B until after Nice (and more than likely, if they medal, they retire anyway, making it moot). The big question mark here is how well do they do with Krylova/Camerlengo? They left Zhulin unwillingly (both sides have stated that if it were up to them, they'd continue the association), and the K/C crew gets bigger all the time.

If the Canton teams don't get reeled in this season (aka - winning by less than ten points) and by the upcoming Russian contenders, I suspect it'll be too late for Sochi. The backlash against Canton is strong and I do wonder if we'll see the gap narrowing. But by whom? Morosov, despite knowing how to make a high BV COP program, isn't an ice dance coach, and trying to shortcut his way to results (copying V/M's music choice and twizzles in the SD, for example) is both cheap and risky. But I/K are clearly the choice of the Russian Fed and if any team benefits from politicking, it'll be them. I really like Bobrova/Soloviev, but they seem to make mistakes in high pressure circumstances (and boy, does twizzling hate them). BUT, and this is extremely important, they have the longest partnership of the Russian teams. People tend to neglect this fact as if it's somehow unimportant to COP, but it most assuredly isn't. Check out the past OGMs and the duration of their partnership at the victory.

  • 2010: Virtue/Moir. Teamed up in 1997. 13 years
  • 2006: Navka/Kostomorov. Teamed up in 1998. 8 years
  • 2002: Anissina/Piezerat. Teamed up in 1993. 9 years
  • 1994/98: Grishuk/Platov. Teamed up in 1989. 5/9 years
  • 1992: Klimova/Ponamarenko. Teamed up in ???? (1982 at the latest). 10 years (minimum)
  • 1988: Bestemianova/Bukin. Teamed up in 1976. 12 years
  • 1984: Torvill/Dean. Teamed up in 1975. 9 years
  • 1980: Linichuk/Karponossov. Teamed up in 1970/71. 10 years
  • 1976: Pakhomova/Gorshkov. Teamed up in 1966. 10 years

By Sochi, Bobrova/Soloviev will have been together for 14 years (teamed up in 2000). Compare that to I/K (six or seven) and R/T (4). That is a significant time difference. Both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White had FIVE YEARS on Domnina/Shabalin, despite the latter's age. COP does favour youth due to high technical elements. But doing those highly technical elements requires a great deal of trust and comfort between the dancers (how many times did Nikita screw up a lift this season? That swan dive lift looked like it would go wrong so many times). I'm unconvinced right now with I/K, but if the rumours that they have kept their old choreographer while going to Morosov are correct, they are better positioned than they would be otherwise. But again, I don't think shortcutting will work for Olympic gold (see DomShabs in the end) and if Morosov's comments about how he works with Ando are any indication of his work in general (and I think they are), I/K would be best to work with him for a season (he's great for confidence) than leave again.

I won't deny it, though, I really am rooting for V/M to take a second Olympic gold.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Firstly, I completely agree with you about Cappellinni/Lannotte. They are in the worst position they could be in. Despite their best performance at Worlds ever (8th), Morosov isn't known for his egalitarian coaching. Given that I/K are clearly gonna get a real push this season, I definitely see C/L getting shunted aside in that camp. Last season was so depressing for them (for me)

Like you, I have a really hard time imagining the judges dumping P/B until after Nice (and more than likely, if they medal, they retire anyway, making it moot). The big question mark here is how well do they do with Krylova/Camerlengo? They left Zhulin unwillingly (both sides have stated that if it were up to them, they'd continue the association), and the K/C crew gets bigger all the time.

If the Canton teams don't get reeled in this season (aka - winning by less than ten points) and by the upcoming Russian contenders, I suspect it'll be too late for Sochi. The backlash against Canton is strong and I do wonder if we'll see the gap narrowing. But by whom? Morosov, despite knowing how to make a high BV COP program, isn't an ice dance coach, and trying to shortcut his way to results (copying V/M's music choice and twizzles in the SD, for example) is both cheap and risky. But I/K are clearly the choice of the Russian Fed and if any team benefits from politicking, it'll be them. I really like Bobrova/Soloviev, but they seem to make mistakes in high pressure circumstances (and boy, does twizzling hate them). BUT, and this is extremely important, they have the longest partnership of the Russian teams. People tend to neglect this fact as if it's somehow unimportant to COP, but it most assuredly isn't. Check out the past OGMs and the duration of their partnership at the victory.
P/B have said that they are in it through Sochi. The FFSG doesn't really have another elite team to replace them, and their breakthrough came at a later age than most current ice dancers. Barring their being epically dumped this season, I can't see them retiring. Re their new coaches, they have worked with Camerlengo in the past - when he was an assistant and they junior ice dancers at Lyon. Personally, I'm not too sorry about their leaving Zhulin; I felt they were progressing technically but regressing artistically. Some fresh ideas could be good for them. BTW, by Sochi they will have been together for about 14 years :).

With F/S's status unclear and the Euros field quite thin, C/L really need to take advantage and come up with something impressive to position themselves as serious contenders. Alas, I don't think Morozov has it in him, and I agree they might suffer from lack of attention with I/K training alongside them.

How does one copy twizzles?

Re Canton, yeah, I do sense a bit of a backlash, though whether it extends to the judges is hard to say at this point. If it does, I imagine the Shibs will be the ones to pay the price: V/M and D/W have built too much of a reputation, but the Shibs are young, are perceived by many to have been lucky with their 2011 results, and they are in danger of being packaged as a very one-note team. Sibling teams can't do romantic stuff, but they can show more range than the Shibs will with the material they are being given.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I know they said they're sticking with it until Sochi, but I'll believe it when I see it. I will point out that they were en route at Worlds to closing the gap to the 10 points or less goal I mentioned before the error. The thing is I don't see them being dumped this season regardless. But, flashing back to Euros 2011 for a second, the gap between them and B/S was only six points. Between them and I/K, just under 14. The gap between them (with error) and D/W? Over 21 points. That suggests that the younger teams (who are more likely to/have more room to improve) will probably close the gap between them and P/B faster than P/B can with the Canton quartet. If they have a great season, I can see them sticking around, but I don't know what a great season entails, exactly.

My understanding is that the twizzle section in I/K's SD will ape the circular pattern V/M did in their FD. Set to the same music. They certainly aren't the first team to do a circular set of twizzles (Hurtado/Diaz did so in the 08/09 season) but it does seem to be a little spurious.

It'll be interesting to see if the backlash does exist with the judges and if it does extend beyond the Shibs. I agree, they're likely to be the first ones to pay the price. That said, if V/M retires due to injuries (I don't see them leaving the game otherwise), I think D/W actually become a little vulnerable too. It's easier to politic against OSM than OGM, and if the Shibs do actually show the range people hope for.....
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Interesting previews. Not sure why some think there will be a "backlash" against the Canton teams. Although Politics is always a factor but less so with the tech requirements these days. Don't know why some think Morozov is not an ice dancing coach as that is his discipline. He never made it big, although he did get to OWG 1998 with Tatiana Navka skating for Belarus, placed 16th. The team was coached by Zhulin. Think Morozov's problem is he is stretched too thin, working with too many skaters.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
For those who like to peruse the protocols, there is a new feature on the ice dance protocols for the short dance:

Example:
Nosulia & Kholoniuk won the SD at JGP Riga. There are two items in the protocol that you may not recognize.

Maria NOSULIA / Evgen KHOLONIUK UKR
CC1Sq2+kpYNN
CC2Sq3+kpNYY

The way these two items which describe the pattern dance part of the SD are read is:

ChaCha1st Segment Level 2. Key points 1 Yes 2 No 3 No
Cha Cha 2nd Segment Level 3. Key points 1 No 2 Yes 3 Yes

For the juniors, the pattern dance is the ChaCha Congelada.

So we can expect a similar notation for the Rhumba in seniors
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Interesting previews. Not sure why some think there will be a "backlash" against the Canton teams. Although Politics is always a factor but less so with the tech requirements these days. Don't know why some think Morozov is not an ice dancing coach as that is his discipline. He never made it big, although he did get to OWG 1998 with Tatiana Navka skating for Belarus, placed 16th. The team was coached by Zhulin. Think Morozov's problem is he is stretched too thin, working with too many skaters.

He's coached perhaps the worst ice dance team to medal in COP with Grushina/Goncharov and his success with singles far outstrips his success with dance teams. Also, I don't like his approach. That's all. As for backlash, well, Novitski actually accused Shpilband of cheating during a broadcast of Worlds 2011. Now, blame sour grapes if you want (recalling that Khoklova elected to continue her competitive career with Andreev under Z/S as opposed to a show career with him), but it's certainly something. And while we talk about the technical requirements, the lack of actual elements means that the BV are always going to be close, so minor politicking could have a major result anyway.
 

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft
Medalist
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
He's coached perhaps the worst ice dance team to medal in COP with Grushina/Goncharov and his success with singles far outstrips his success with dance teams. Also, I don't like his approach. That's all. As for backlash, well, Novitski actually accused Shpilband of cheating during a broadcast of Worlds 2011. Now, blame sour grapes if you want (recalling that Khoklova elected to continue her competitive career with Andreev under Z/S as opposed to a show career with him), but it's certainly something. And while we talk about the technical requirements, the lack of actual elements means that the BV are always going to be close, so minor politicking could have a major result anyway.

To me, that showed nothing but a lack of class, and that the real "backlash" against them is speculation rooted purely in jealousy made up by bitter coaches and former dancers who care about absolutely nothing more than winning. We can only wait and see how this plays out, but I am almost positive this is not going to affect Z/S or the teams that train under them mentally. These kind of statements are so embedded in petty hatred it's a bit ridiculous, and just makes the people hashing out this "backlash" seem laughable despite whatever skating "credentials" they might have.
 

BackStage Barbie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
I think that Weaver/Poje vs Pechalat/Bourzat will be an interesting dynamic this season, similar to that of Davis/White vs Virtue/Moir. They train together everyday so they'll push each other to improve. They're also the only dance teams competing three Grand Prix events so they'll technically have the most high level competition experience of the season going into Worlds. Because they represent different countries I don't think the rivalry will really become heated, but I see them fighting for the bronze at the Grand Prix Final and Worlds. I love both teams and I hope to see great things from them this year!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I think that Weaver/Poje vs Pechalat/Bourzat will be an interesting dynamic this season, similar to that of Davis/White vs Virtue/Moir. They train together everyday so they'll push each other to improve. They're also the only dance teams competing three Grand Prix events so they'll technically have the most high level competition experience of the season going into Worlds. Because they represent different countries I don't think the rivalry will really become heated, but I see them fighting for the bronze at the Grand Prix Final and Worlds. I love both teams and I hope to see great things from them this year!

You're forgetting the Shibutanis. Last season showed they cannot be ignored.

BTW, I'm not convinced skating 3 GP events is necessarily a good thing, especially for the French who will have had 5 major competitions (3 GPs, a GPF and Nationals) in two months' time. And two of W/P's events are in Japan and Russia.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
They can skip the Nationals (did it before, anyway). But it's worth mentioning that P/B did Nebelhorn (Germany), Finlandia (Finland), two GPs (China and France), the GPF (China), Nationals (duh), and Euros (Switzerland), so they clearly are able to do a heavy schedule.

I'm very curious about they dynamic between P/B and W/P. Was last year a fluke for the latter? And with all the "Battacuda" rhumbas, how do they stand out? They had a largely acclaimed SD but the FD wasn't as liked (certainly not by me, anyway). Do they suffer from their relatively shallow curve?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The Shibutani's will medal at all their GP events and GPF and possibly win US nationals and worlds.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
He's coached perhaps the worst ice dance team to medal in COP with Grushina/Goncharov and his success with singles far outstrips his success with dance teams. Also, I don't like his approach. That's all. As for backlash, well, Novitski actually accused Shpilband of cheating during a broadcast of Worlds 2011. Now, blame sour grapes if you want (recalling that Khoklova elected to continue her competitive career with Andreev under Z/S as opposed to a show career with him), but it's certainly something. And while we talk about the technical requirements, the lack of actual elements means that the BV are always going to be close, so minor politicking could have a major result anyway.

It's far. far. far. far. far (how many fars do I have?) easier to choreograph a singles program than a dance program, so it's hardly a surprise that Morosov could be more successful in singles. Re Novitski's charge on Shpilband - I think it's just sour grapes. I spoke to Khoklova in Detroit and it was clear to me that she was "smitten" with Andreev. He's a good looking guy.
 
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