What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance? | Page 11 | Golden Skate

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I think part of the reason is that, well, their success was immediate. If we’re talking about them as potential for the future, then yes – people would say “I like them, look forward to more when they grow up.” But they’re also world bronze medalists. Virtue/Moir followed their first medal with a complete departure, program wise. So did Davis/White. So if their success is immediate, I see no reason to somehow exclude them from the expectations that occur when you have your medal-winning breakthrough.
I assume with D/W this is in reference to POTO vs. their tango FD, although it may be more appropriate to compare their breakthrough 2009 season with the year after. In either case, I don't know that they took as big a risk as did V/M with Umbrellas vs. Pink Floyd.

The Shibutanis are lovely and talented, but they are in dire need of some originality in their programs. I don't buy that their problem is that they're a sibling team; not all ice dance programs have to be romantic, and the Kerrs certainly didn't stick to a narrow range in their career. The Zars weren't as original, but their Schindler's List FD is another example of something that a sibling team can do successfully. I think Maia and Alex's problem is that they are a sibling team coached and choreographed by Zoueva and Shpilband, who don't really know what to do with teams that can't do passionate/romantic. They still haven't really figured out how to make Meryl and Charlie relate to each other on the ice, and I suspect that Samuelson/Bates may have found themselves with rather limited options artistically as well. I realize that the Canton teams have a winning formula, but some outside choreographers could do the Shibs a world of good.

As a rule, heavy programs seem to be preferred, regardless of discipline. I think last year we saw a notable example with the pairs – Savchenko/Szolkowy vs Volosozhar/Trankov. S/S were more artistic – the program was a better match to the music, it was more complex choreographically, and they performed it absolutely sensationally. But V/T were more traditionally moving, and a surprising number of people thought they should’ve won.
Yes and no. Pechalat and Bourzat are a good example of a team that has found success with lighter material rather than more serious concepts.

People seriously think that V/T should have won? Their programs together have been so blah. I'll take the "lyrical snot" Maxim so hated over Morozov's vision any day.

...the one thing that does bother me is that I’m not convinced that one school of ice dancing dominating the way the Canton team does now is in fact a good thing for the sport. If I’m honest, I’m gonna say I only truly love one Canton team (V/M) and have a lot of respect/like/enthusiasm for the others. I’m not convinced I think an all Canton podium is where I want the sport to head, the same way an all Nichol-podium for mens/ladies skating would be underwhelming, regardless of actual merit
I admire V/M rather than love them, and have varying degrees of enthusiasm for the others, but I agree with the sentiment. I really don't like how so many elite teams are now concentrated in the two Detroit-area clubs, and I especially don't like the Canton formula that allows teams to take shortcuts to success. This is not to say that we need to go back to the 6.0, wait your turn days; but you can tell when a team has been together for a while, like V/M or P/B, vs. new teams that are kind of going through the COP motions and hitting the technical requirements but don't have the same connection.

In addition, wait your turn might not have been a good way to motivate ice dancers, but the expectation for quick results must be an insane pressure cooker for teams that might require more time to develop and come up with interesting ideas. P/B partnered near the end of their junior days (2000), didn't win a GP medal until 2006 and didn't win an ISU championship medal until 2011 Euros (!!!). If I'm not mistaken, they will be the oldest ice dancers competing this season (Fabian turns 31 in December; Nathalie will be 28). The Kerrs followed a similar path, though they reached the top ten level and got their first Euros medal sooner while taking a bit longer on the GP circuit. How many young teams would have the patience to go through the process Nathalie and Fabian and the Kerrs did? How many good programs would we have missed out on if they'd given up, or split? There were some really unfortunate splits and changes this past off-season, and I suspect they are due at least in part to the pressure ice dance teams are under to succeed quickly. When the Kerrs finished 10th at their first Euros, it was considered amazing. Now I/K are seventh at their first Worlds, with both technically still junior-aged and only three years together under their belts, and it's a disappointment. That's really sad.
 
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NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
In addition, wait your turn might not have been a good way to motivate ice dancers, but the expectation for quick results must be an insane pressure cooker for teams that might require more time to develop and come up with interesting ideas. P/B partnered near the end of their junior days (2000), didn't win a GP medal until 2006 and didn't win an ISU championship medal until 2011 Euros (!!!). If I'm not mistaken, they will be the oldest ice dancers competing this season (Fabian turns 31 in December; Nathalie will be 28). The Kerrs followed a similar path, though they reached the top ten level and got their first Euros medal sooner while taking a bit longer on the GP circuit. How many young teams would have the patience to go through the process Nathalie and Fabian and the Kerrs did? How many good programs would we have missed out on if they'd given up, or split? There were some really unfortunate splits and changes this past off-season, and I suspect they are due at least in part to the pressure ice dance teams are under to succeed quickly. When the Kerrs finished 10th at their first Euros, it was considered amazing. Now I/K are seventh at their first Worlds, with both technically still junior-aged and only three years together under their belts, and it's a disappointment. That's really sad.


100% agree with this statement. I really like COP because it does a way better job of taking out personal preference and some of the politics and putting parameters and measurements around technical aspects of the sport. In its best form, it allows skaters to track their progress, understand what needs to be done next, and provides generally a measure of consistency in results. An unfortunate by-product is that COP also tends to reward little robots, and an unrealistic expectation of instant success. If you get the levels, do it reasonably well, skate fast, then you get the points, and you can win. But it doesn't mean you are a great dancer, or even the best dancer. With an emphasis on the tricks, there is a natural advantage for young teams that have not yet physically grown and matured. And what constitutes success at Junior does not always translate to Senior. I also find the pressure on the young Russians sad. They are so young and just need time to develop, starting with basic skills. We need to take a longer term view of development of skaters and teams and when and how they are put on the international stage even at Junior. And we need to think about what really constitutes "normal". For example, how many people have commented on Tessa's "weight gain"? She has blossomed into a beautiful young woman, and looks healthy and strong. Why should she look like a young girl still? Why is that the ideal? Now we will see new levels of maturity and strength and beauty in their skating that wasn't possible when they were younger and smaller. I really think their best work is yet to come, and I am so excited to see them continue to develop.

The Shibs are a really exciting team for the future. They have a very pure skating style, and he is especially very, very talented. But they do not have the refinement, maturity and depth in their skating that is seen in Virtue/Moir. And why should they? What Virtue/Moir do is simply brilliant with all the little details, connections, stylings, in addition to the fabulous unison in leg lines, edges, smoothness, etc. Shibs are not in the same ball park. And I don't think they are in the same league as Weaver/Poje, or Pechalat/Bourzat. I don't think the Shibs are robots, either, and they are not a new team, having skated together for many years, but for some reason COP doesn't differentiate meaningfully between good technical skating with a great package, and the addition of substance and maturity that takes the program from a well done competition exercise to a dance masterpiece.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
but for some reason COP doesn't differentiate meaningfully between good technical skating with a great package, and the addition of substance and maturity that takes the program from a well done competition exercise to a dance masterpiece.

But the mature skating of V/M you raved about won, not the young Shibs, who got the bronze medal by default. While the Shibs compensate one aspect with another, it's teams with the complete package that are ahead, unless they have a mishap.

CoP gave young talented teams a chance to advance fast but they have to have the goods. The fans' comments and demands here about the Shibs surely pressure them more than the system. At this point, this young team is more of an exception than the norm and they are in no way assured of the same results as last season. But it's unreasonable to demand range and diversity from the young ones with limited repertoire, and I mean more than just Dance, seeing how often young successful skaters are compared to skaters years older or retired after a full career.

As far as the joyous programs and expressions are concerned, isn't it one of the latest directives by ISU to have uplifting Dance programs?
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
On the subject of what will ice dance bring us this year, from looking at the protocols, I would say, we will be seeing a lot of deductions. In previous years, you would see deductions for falls and extended lifts, and maybe costume if a piece of it fell off..

There are always a lot of deductions at the first of the year, mostly for extended lifts. The skaters then fine tune the programs to avoid deductions. Maybe you're just noticing it more this year, save and except I've never heard of music deductions in ice-dance. Is it because the music is not the prescribed rhythm for the SD?
 

alithia

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
I wouldn't say that I/K's placement and skating is a dissapointment.It's a dissapointment because their PR and they themselves have presented them as the only hope for Sochi.Rather clever of Zhulin at that point,with V/M being Olympic champions at such a young age,with the russians searching for stars and finding the equivalent.Almost identical age to the one V/M had back in 2006,same packaging,trying to put the accent on the personal connection on the ice etc.Clever if they were contestants in Averbukh's show and in their 30s.I'm afraid that the kids themselves believed and still believe the hype around them while their skating shows their age.B/S were the third team back then,and it seems their coaches have an allergy to PR as well,so it was easy.Plus they're not a couple off the ice and everybody knows that.

The Shibutanis are a totally different story.They got their hype in 2009,they finished off the junior podium in 2010 and they just worked,worked and worked.A lot.And it showed.I don't like their style but they're good technicians and can deliver.Sometimes they will win medals,sometimes they won't,as I'm afraid it will happen with all the current crop of ice dancers.Too many teams,too close in ablities,it's going to be a bumpy road until Sochi.

I'm not particularly fond of P/B program.It's evident they have boosted the technical contnent of their program.They're very ambitious in that aspect,but the program itself after the first two halfs is kind of bland.And they don't have the skating skills to keep a bland program alive.I hope that by the end of the season they will have found the balance.But,I also think that this kind of FD leaves the door open at Europeans.And the three russian teams will be hungry,B/S to show everyone who is the boss,R/T to show they're not number 3 and I/K to show they're progressing.It's going to be interesting at least.

The question mark for me is Capellini/Lanotte with La Strada.Where are they going to end up at Euros especially.

About V/M's FD..I'm kind of uninterested in it,I admire their skating,but it's as if they are going back instead of forth.I have no doubt that by the end of the season they will be amazing at it,but the FD itself doesn't excite me.Maybe I'm just bored of them catering to their fans taste for cute and romantic,or the fact that I believe that they can challenge themselves much more,but their technical score was almost identical to the Shibs,B/S and W/P from last years worlds and it kind of bugged me...
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
There are always a lot of deductions at the first of the year, mostly for extended lifts. The skaters then fine tune the programs to avoid deductions. Maybe you're just noticing it more this year, save and except I've never heard of music deductions in ice-dance. Is it because the music is not the prescribed rhythm for the SD?

There are the usual number of extended lifts as the skaters get used to their new programs--which is why I didn't list them. What's unusual are the wide variety of other deductions, including the music deductions. Furthermore, those programs are for music that has been used before without deductions- Romeo & Juliet (Rota) and Hall of the Mountain King. And All 3 were for FD's, not SD's. I haven't seen anyone interviewed on the music deductions yet who knows whether it was for lack of a beat for too long a time, or something else.

I'm still waiting to see the wrong rhythm deduction taken for an SD.

It should have been imposed last year on a number of the wangoes we had.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
But the mature skating of V/M you raved about won, not the young Shibs, who got the bronze medal by default. While the Shibs compensate one aspect with another, it's teams with the complete package that are ahead, unless they have a mishap.

CoP gave young talented teams a chance to advance fast but they have to have the goods. The fans' comments and demands here about the Shibs surely pressure them more than the system. At this point, this young team is more of an exception than the norm and they are in no way assured of the same results as last season. But it's unreasonable to demand range and diversity from the young ones with limited repertoire, and I mean more than just Dance, seeing how often young successful skaters are compared to skaters years older or retired after a full career.

As far as the joyous programs and expressions are concerned, isn't it one of the latest directives by ISU to have uplifting Dance programs?


No problems with the joyous skating, here. It's very age appropriate, and the Shibs do that well.

As for COP allowing young skaters to advance fast, I have a couple of examples/concerns. Last week in the JGP, the Russian team scored 62.86 in the SD. Are they really that close to V/M who scored 68.74 at Finlandia? I don't think they are even in the same ballpark. The Russians are good, but not that good yet. And they soundly beat the Shibs in the SD. Does that mean when this Russian team appears at Senior we should expect to see them in the top 5? I don't think so. 87.12 in the FD basically means they tied or beat the Shibs in the FD as well, since there is an extra element at Senior. Those are pretty high marks. But what the scores don't adequately reflect is the difference in the quality and maturity of the skating. The Russians are not at the level of the Shibs yet. I/K had the same sort of experience, which seems to have given them license to expect they will be the next great thing for Sochi. But suddenly Senior results were a "disappointment". I don't think they were disappointing. I think the expectations were way off.

Another example, some of the really young teams finding fast success. I think Ralph/Hill were casualities of this. They won Novice, then Junior, then ended top 5 at Senior in Canada. But they've been stuck and not improving since, until maybe perhaps this year. (We'll see.) It's hurt them internationally, as well as within Canada. It would have been better for them to have to work more and develop more at Junior before reaching Senior, and then they would fare better in their international assignments at Senior. Kudos to Ralph/Hill for sticking together, but I agree some of the changes this year are a result of the pressure to achieve more than teams should be expected to achieve. This is my fear for our little teams from BC, in addition to them all outgrowing each other and having to start fresh in new partnerships at a level where there are a lot of eyes, attention and judgement. Just witness the feeding frenzy on all the changes this year, and it has to be tough on kids. There are some pretty nasty comments about Chock/Bates on these boards.

How many years were Wing/Lowe at Senior before achieving success? And the same with Dubreil/Lauzon? Bourne/Kraatz? And Delobel/Schoenfelder? And even Weaver/Poje needed to spend some time in the wilderness over the last couple of years. But they returned to worlds and won a top 5 placing, now that they are ready for it. Of course it is unreasonable to demand range and diversity from the young ones with limited repertoire. And I guess that's the point. Some of these young ones are achieving results in line with the very top teams, which would lead one to believe they should have diversity and range, when they obviously don't, and can't be expected to. In my opinion, the marks aren't reflecting this difference.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
That should be on the judges, who are handing out scores that really are too high. It is all well and good to claim scores are relative, but when the scores are tie breakers for this and that (like jgpf) and qualifiers for worlds, the absolute value of the scores should mean something.

And as you have shown, NorthernDancers, so often, the scores aren't really senior scores, and it can have a bad effect on the kids.

I agree that R&H might have benefited from another year in juniors. For that matter, it might have helped Chock/Zuerlein, and Crone/Poirier, too, as well as I&K. All those teams had expectations heaped upon them that were not, in retrospect, reasonable.

However, the rapid success of V&M and D&W contributed to people's unreasonable expectations. The fact is, both teams are, in their own different ways remarkable, and their careers should not be used as yardsticks for expectations for other teams.

I love your example of Weaver/Poje as a team that really came into their own with a little more experience. They are a good role model for younger teams, I think.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
The judges have to mark what is performed before them and there is no way/mark for them to judge "diversity" and "range" in one program. That is something that you can only judge over a period of years.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
VM and DW aren't the only ones anymore. You also have the Shibutani's. They had the success that some thought I/K would have. Like medaling at their first grand prix events and doing well at their nationals and winning a worlds medal. I/K did not do well in their GP events and did not have a good nationals and had a fine Euros where they didn't medal and then bombed badly compared to the other new senior team. It was just a bomb of a season. The Shibutani's are at it again this season. Right behind the best.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
This is true of the Shibutanis-but not every team is suddenly equipped to be a world medallist in their first or second season, even if a team ahead of them stumbles (V&M benefitting from B&A's stumble, and Shibutanis benefitting from P&B).
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Entire Post.

Thanks for responding Pogue. Sorry I took so long to respond, haven't been feeling well.

Here are a few quick replies to some of your shorter points.

1. Check out B/K's 2000-2001 FD when they moved to Tarasova. (note TRacy's comment about the mood with which it was skated that season than in this competition.) They tried virtually everything to break through over the course of their career.

2. I understand your concerns about one school being dominant, but in sports it's up the to competitors to find a way to break through. In tennis, Nadal did it with Federer and this year Djokovic did it with both of them after years in the shadows. It can be done, but it should not happen just for the sake of providing balance. It should happen because it's deserved. That's what would be best for the sport.

3. Regarding this program appearing juvenile to some, perhaps it's because this style of dancing is currently taught in dance classes for younger people. It is very physically demanding on the floor after all. But at it's inception, this was the social dance style of young men and women looking to party in bars and clubs across America and Europe during pretty depressing times (WWII). It was meant to inject fun into life when life seemed pretty darn bleak. That's not juvenile at all in my opinion.

To continue my K/P analogy, remember that they too were a team that had very immediate success. They virtually came out of nowhere on the international level. Sergei had been very successful as a junior with his previous partner (winning junior worlds), but Marina was a good deal younger than him at the time they teamed up (13 to his 19 I believe). They debuted internationally a few years later when she was 15-16 at the Ennia Cup and Moscow News as far as I can tell and performed well winning medals. Western audiences next saw them place 4th at 1983 Euros then disappear again. They reemerged a year later to win bronze at Euros and Olympics. That's pretty immediate success at their 4th and 5th international events (as far as I can gather). In terms of the number of events, that's pretty much on par with the Shibs. Also, as I've said, they were the conventional establishment team in terms of their approach to choreography for most of their career. It failed to enthuse some back then just as the Shibs are encountering now. But their quality was undeniable and it did not hold them back except at 84 Worlds where as you pointed out, B/S did have a glaring error but were placed ahead.

I know there is a desire out there for every team to be endlessly innovative with earth shattering choreography that moves people to tears, but that's just not realistic. Those programs are actually pretty rare. Also cries about recyling of themes are a bit silly because themes are always recycled. There is very little originality in any choreography being done in skating or dancing. It's all a new twist on old themes. For example, P/B's current FD breaks no real new ground ( neither did V/M or D/W's Olympic FDs). It's in a mold of many ethnic/cultural themes already done before. That does not mean it lacks merit. It just should not get more attention simply because it's not a conventional western theme. There are categories from which to choose when picking a program just as there are genres of books to read. All have their merits and shortcomings. The quality of the skating and execution of the choreographic goals should be the determining factor when you have that much variety from my perspective. As Mrs P and others have stated, the fact that they are taking their time to build a really solid foundation now will serve the well in the future because COP will reward their strong base and the fact that they accomplish the choreographic goal of the program. COP is less concerned with the relative creative merits of the programs, but focuses more on how well that choreography is executed.

As far as expectations go, Mrs. P and I have both stated that there were other expectations beyond stylistic ones which they had on their plate. They have chosen to address the technical ones this season improving their lifts, connecting steps, energy, sharpness, timing etc rather than focusing on expanding their choreographic style. They can't effectively do both in one season. It's a good decision and here's why. They do "smooth and lyrical" really well. Even their program last year was not really much in the mold of what their current program is, at least in terms of sharpness and quickness. It had music from a similar time frame, but that's about it compared to this program. It was smooth and silky, but not all that quick footed. The way this program is being danced, it clear that the aim is to improve their partner dancing skills and ability to handle intricacies with steps and music, just as D/W did last season. In fact, like last year's tango, I expect this routine to constantly be tweaked all season long and not to really wow most fans. That's not its purpose. It's intended to make them better dancers IMO. Choreographically, during the last Olympic cycle when team Canton emerged, there was a clear trend away from FDs that were choreographed around partner, social, ballroom and Latin dance themes toward ones with a narrative. B/A had a lot of success working in that mold in the previous cycle, but when they attempted to continue it with That's Entertainment, they were soundly rejected. The entire landscape had changed and they had not realized it. (I guarantee Marina and Igor are determined not to repeat that mistake again.) Their programs for the rest of the cylcle were all movie scores, operas, and symphonic pieces choreographed around very adult themes as was the general trend among elite teams with few exceptions. The rules and the continued podium finishes of teams with narrative routines amplified this trend. There were whole years' worth of discussions and arguments on this thread about the lack of dance in ice dance from 2006-2010. Many people complained that D/W's programs were very powerful, fast and energetic, but not dancy enough for their tastes. As Doris and others pointed out, the rules were not written at the time to emphasize more ballroom dance qualities like matching leg line, posture, hold etc. Now of course those rules have been tightened and revised and actually call or more upbeat themes. They tend to favor programs with far more structure both technically and creatively with more "real dancing". That may seem to be stifling to some, but it does not bother me because this tug of war in ice dance has been going on since I was in diapers decades ago. It's nothing new. The pendulum will swing back in the other direction eventually. Ice dance would be boring if it were always favored toward on style or artisitic direction. Somtimes a return to basics is needed before the next great creative leap can take place. From that standpoint, you can't really blame Maia and Alex for their approach.

Regarding your point about D/W and V/M vs the Shibs, I'll say this. It's almost always better in any sport to start off with a solid technical base and then make other improvements (flash and dash) later. It's like the difference between basketball players who learn playing pick-up games first vs players who play on a formally coached team. Trick shots are great, but having a solid layup, jump shot and good passing that are well practiced puts points on the board consistently. Therefore, good fundametals will usually win out over flashiness despite being less fun to watch. Under the expectations of COP's during the last cycle, D/W and V/M both had the requisite techincal base in place from the start. They just perfectly fit the system of the day. What they really needed was the chance to stretch choregraphically, as you've said and they did. If that standard were still in place, I'd say the Shibs would also be in really standing to start stretching out their themes. But it changed and they and we are still adjusting to it. The new rules in place insist on stricter calling by the panel and emphasis on music choices. It's clear that the old standards are no longer adequate. Like them or not, Marina and Igor have recognized this early on and are choreographing their teams to take advantage of the current rules and to win. It's the hand they've been dealt and they are going with it. They recognize that if the techincal base is strong the rest can be updated later. On that point, I'd argue that P/B are the exact opposite of the Shibs. They were extremely creative from the beginning, but really needed to improve technically. They've worked admirably to get there including going fairly conventional last year, but still are prone to mishaps.

Given my argument that the technical base has changed, I like to cite D/W. Despite being considered technical wizards heading into last year, their entire season and programs were largely a technical exercise (one which V/M's injury largely gave them the freedom to explore) in becoming better dancers rather than skaters. It was a good choice both for them as a team and because the rules demand it. It's one of the reasons why pre-COP teams stuggled under the new system, failure to adapt to the rules. They were suddenly faced with technical demands which were extremely difficult to adjust to. Eventually they were left behind. B/A are another example. They spent the last 4 years of their career focused so much on trying to improve the presentation in their programs, but what steadily declined was their technical content relative to their competitors. By the time they realized they needed to improve their base, it was too late and instead of fighting for 1st they were struggling to get on the podium. (although in my mind they should have been 3rd in Vancouver) By contrast, even in 07 V/M and D/W were nearly even with all the teams ahead of them from a technical COP perspective. They worked their presentation tirelessly preceisely because they had already met the necessary technical standard and by Vancouver all their ducks were in a row and no one else was close.

In the end, I don't think what the Shibs are facing now is not completely analogous to their training mates. They all have different traits, strengths and weaknesses. What's remarkable about their situation is that their coaches have managed to address so muc of each teams' needs so well. (On a side note, K/P, U/Z and G/P all shared Dubova as a coach for several years and went 1-2-4 at Worlds in 1991 while with her, yet anyone answering honestly would admit they are all very different from each other.)

Finally, regarding the Shibs' critics I can't really make sense of their point of view because it appears to change with the circumstances or the wind. First, much of the criticism seems to assume that they have a "problem" which implies that their choice of programs is somehow limiting their results. That is based on trends from the last cycle and of course is entirely untrue at least over the last season and the start of this one. Perhaps it's residual and refers to some of their struggles from their final season as juniors. There were of course extenuating circumstances that year (chiefly a growth spurt) which are no longer an issue. Others argue that their success is too rapid because COP rewards techincal proficiency at the expense of artistic range. Does anyone remember the ice dance from 95 to 04? Lots of wonderfully emotive programs and some really terrible ones, but not the greatest technical exercises. Part of its problem then was there were a ton of teams that were so uneven in terms of skill that it almost became laughable. Many men on the top teams were relatively weak compared to their partners. (I'm looking at you Fusar-Poli and Margaglio) They relied on a lot of two foot skating and served mainly as a prop to escort the lady around the ice. There was a real lack of intricate steps among many teams and not much skating in hold. Themes became more and more abstract. It was very often not a pretty picture. Is that what people want? Lastly some seem to think that the big band theme from this season is a boring one. That's a matter of taste to which they are entitled. But it's similarly inconsistent to assume that the "innovative" themes they prefer are 1) new and 2) necessarily preferable for all skating fans. When you've seen as many Boleros, Romeo and Juliets, Carmina Buranas, experimental social commentaries and New Age Yanni knockoffs as I have, a little straightforward Glenn Miller or Fred Astaire is a welcome palate cleanser. You don't have to know any backstory or come up with on in your head to make sense of whatever avant garde program you're watching with a straightforward dance number. It's just meant to be fun. Regardless, it seems that many people are falling back on old arguments to justify continued opposition to their success. It's a little tiring especially given that the season has barely begun and most of what we've seen has been pretty disappointing.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
An unfortunate by-product is that COP also tends to reward little robots, and an unrealistic expectation of instant success. If you get the levels, do it reasonably well, skate fast, then you get the points, and you can win. But it doesn't mean you are a great dancer, or even the best dancer. With an emphasis on the tricks, there is a natural advantage for young teams that have not yet physically grown and matured. And what constitutes success at Junior does not always translate to Senior.
How many years were Wing/Lowe at Senior before achieving success? And the same with Dubreil/Lauzon? Bourne/Kraatz? And Delobel/Schoenfelder? And even Weaver/Poje needed to spend some time in the wilderness over the last couple of years. But they returned to worlds and won a top 5 placing, now that they are ready for it. Of course it is unreasonable to demand range and diversity from the young ones with limited repertoire. And I guess that's the point. Some of these young ones are achieving results in line with the very top teams, which would lead one to believe they should have diversity and range, when they obviously don't, and can't be expected to. In my opinion, the marks aren't reflecting this difference.
I agree with everything you wrote - I touched upon this in my post yesterday, but you've done a much more thorough job of articulating the problems with the system as pertains to ice dance. I particularly agree with the sections I've left quoted (also that the criticism of Tessa's supposed weight gain being absurd). Say what you will for 6.0, it did leave judges room to evaluate range and maturity and other things that don't seem to apply much anymore. The PCS are not an equal measure: they are more detailed, which is good, but also include many technical rather than artistic considerations. This is a problem across all disciplines, IMO, but dance seems to have been particularly affected. I think doing away with CDs is also responsible for some of the issues we're seeing in dance.

Young teams do benefit from the rules and scoring in place today, and ice dance has gotten awfully young these last few years; I suspect it's now a younger discipline on average than pairs and men. The lack of maturity in some of the teams is noticeable, and often once you look past the tech and the skating skills, there's not much there. There are teams that would certainly have benefited from additional time in juniors or a lower-pressure introduction to the senior level. DelSchoes, to use one of your examples, were junior world silver medalists, and it still took them years to break through at the senior level, and they had time to improve their skating and develop their own identity.

If I look at the Olympics, V/M had a very pretty program and skated it very well; D/W had a difficult program and skated it very fast. Both teams did lifts that were there as highlight moves and IMO had nothing to do with the programs (The Goose was more appropriate in the Pink Floyd FD; the Phantom is just unattractive, even if it is difficult). Both teams scored well, as they should have under this judging system. Meanwhile, you had F/S, who had a gorgeous program that flowed, had a concept, and with elements that were really well-incorporated but not at the same wow level. I imagine they were somewhat slower, and they never really had a shot at getting near the podium. Just as the older teams may not be up to doing some of the more difficult elements, a younger team couldn't have skated The Immigrants to the same effect. But the technical aspects of a program are more easily measurable, while other things are not. I don't know how to resolve this.

However, the rapid success of V&M and D&W contributed to people's unreasonable expectations. The fact is, both teams are, in their own different ways remarkable, and their careers should not be used as yardsticks for expectations for other teams.

I love your example of Weaver/Poje as a team that really came into their own with a little more experience. They are a good role model for younger teams, I think.
But even V/M and D/W, who started out very strong, didn't achieve some of the results now expected of young teams. Sixth and seventh at 2007 Worlds was and still is really great, but the same is now perceived as a disappointment for I/K. D/W didn't immediately medal on the GP circuit. And both those teams had already been together for nearly a decade by the time they made their senior debut. So while their success has contributed to some of the pressure on younger teams now, I agree that neither team should be used as a model of what should be expected - and certainly expecting young ice dancers to succeed even beyond what V/M and D/W did when they debuted as seniors is absurd.

W/P are very good role models; the younger teams at DSC are fortunate to be able to train alongside them and P/B.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
But even V/M and D/W, who started out very strong, didn't achieve some of the results now expected of young teams. Sixth and seventh at 2007 Worlds was and still is really great, but the same is now perceived as a disappointment for I/K. D/W didn't immediately medal on the GP circuit. And both those teams had already been together for nearly a decade by the time they made their senior debut. So while their success has contributed to some of the pressure on younger teams now, I agree that neither team should be used as a model of what should be expected - and certainly expecting young ice dancers to succeed even beyond what V/M and D/W did when they debuted as seniors is absurd.

When D&W and V&M debuted at the senior level, they faced a number of teams who had been skating senior for many years, some of whom had been together for nearly as long as Tessa Virtue had been on this earth. Their placement at 6th and 7th was astonishing under the circumstances. The young teams who debuted at seniors last year faced only a handful of teams who had been senior for more than 5 years, and two of them finished 1, 2.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Finally, regarding the Shibs' critics I can't really make sense of their point of view because it appears to change with the circumstances or the wind. First, much of the criticism seems to assume that they have a "problem" which implies that their choice of programs is somehow limiting their results. That is based on trends from the last cycle and of course is entirely untrue at least over the last season and the start of this one. Perhaps it's residual and refers to some of their struggles from their final season as juniors. There were of course extenuating circumstances that year (chiefly a growth spurt) which are no longer an issue. Others argue that their success is too rapid because COP rewards techincal proficiency at the expense of artistic range. Does anyone remember the ice dance from 95 to 04? Lots of wonderfully emotive programs and some really terrible ones, but no the greatest technical exercises. Part of its problem then was there were a ton of teams that were so uneven in terms of skill that it almost because laughable. Many men on the top teams were relatively weak compared to their partners. (I'm looking at you Fusar-Poli and Margaglio) They relied on a lot of two foot skating and served mainly as a prop to escort the lady around the ice. There was a real lack of intricate steps among many teams and not much skating in hold. Themes became more and more abstract. It was very often not a pretty picture. Is that what people want?

I agree with jcoates on this. I just don't understand why people are so critical of the Shibs and their bronze medal. Everyone admits they're an incredibly talented team, yet at the same time seems to feel they medaled too soon and should have "waited their turn" as teams used to in the old days. Also that they're too young and not developed enough artistically. All I can say is, this is a sport first and foremost; in the COP era, it's finally being scored like one. The Shibutanis are some of the best technical ice dancers in the world. That counts--and SHOULD count--for a lot. In my book, it counts for more than vague (and far from unanimous) opinions about P/B being more "mature" or W/P being more "innovative" or whatever. Maia & Alex skated fantastic last year and absolutely deserved the bronze as far as I'm concerned. I personally found their victory tremendously exciting. Who the heck wants to go back to the old 6.0 days when dance teams seemed to win more on attitude, politics, and theatrics than any actual skill? I agree with jcoates that the 1995-2004 period was sort of the nadir of ice dance--when I think of the overwrought, often technically empty programs of that period, from so many teams that were really never better than mediocre yet somehow rose to the top of the heap (Fusar-Poli/Margaglio, Lobacheva/Averbukh, Chait/Sakhnovsky, Grushina/Goncharov), I just shake my head. Whatever its faults, COP is a far better system and, if it encourages and rewards teams like the Shibutanis, I'm all for it.

I'll be seeing the Shibutanis live this weekend at the Evening with Champions show in Harvard and am very excited about it . . . Hopefully, I'll get to see one of their new competition programs that everyone's talking about.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I have no problem with the Shibutani's winning a medal last year. It wasn't the strongest field ever and they skated well while others did not.

P&B are and have always been one of the technically weaker teams. Many European fans are enamoured of their interesting programs and their mature presentation and willing to overlook their technical deficiencies. When Crone & Poirier unexpected won the silver medal at Skate Canada in their senior international debut, we heard similar comments about C&P from P&B's most ardent fans, and of course, that C&P were over-scored at home. This past season, the fans of European ice-dance were upset at the North American sweep of the podium, but as long as P&B are the best European team they're going to have trouble against the Sphilband/Zueva teams who are technically stronger and very well-trained.

I think the biggest issue that the Shibutani's face is being brother and sister, there are just so many themes and programs which are completely inappropriate for them which limits their choices. As we saw with the Hubbells, anything which hints at romance between siblings simply squicks out the audience, and I suspect, the judges. The other issue they have, which is also a problem for Paul and Islam, is that they skate very much like Virtue & Moir. In the case of P&I, they're packaged to look like Tessa and Scott, which I don't think is helpful for young skaters seeking to make a name for themselves.

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but when the team you strive to be like is competing on the same ice, unless you're better than them (fat chance), you simply remind everyone how much better the original is.

(Same comment holds true substituting Leonova for the Shibs and Irina Slutskaya for V&M.)
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
P&B are and have always been one of the technically weaker teams. Many European fans are enamoured of their interesting programs and their mature presentation and willing to overlook their technical deficiencies. When Crone & Poirier unexpected won the silver medal at Skate Canada in their senior international debut, we heard similar comments about C&P from P&B's most ardent fans, and of course, that C&P were over-scored at home. This past season, the fans of European ice-dance were upset at the North American sweep of the podium, but as long as P&B are the best European team they're going to have trouble against the Sphilband/Zueva teams who are technically stronger and very well-trained.

I think the biggest issue that the Shibutani's face is being brother and sister, there are just so many themes and programs which are completely inappropriate for them which limits their choices. As we saw with the Hubbells, anything which hints at romance between siblings simply squicks out the audience, and I suspect, the judges. The other issue they have, which is also a problem for Paul and Islam, is that they skate very much like Virtue & Moir. In the case of P&I, they're packaged to look like Tessa and Scott, which I don't think is helpful for young skaters seeking to make a name for themselves.

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but when the team you strive to be like is competing on the same ice, unless you're better than them (fat chance), you simply remind everyone how much better the original is.
1. P/B are not as weak technically as you suggest, they are not poorly trained, and have improved on the technical side throughout their career. And they bring things to the ice that Shpilband and Zoueva teams don't, not just from an artistic standpoint. As for that time when they were beaten by C/P - they skated badly at 2008 SC, and I don't recall too many people who thought they wuzrobbed. They got better as that season progressed and their results reflected that.The only reason they were not on the Worlds podium last season was a freak fall; that does not mean they are suddenly inferior to Canton teams in general and the Shibutanis in particular.

2. I like the Shibutanis and find them very talented and likable; I have since first seeing them at 2009 JW. But I do feel they were generously scored at times last year. I'm also not sure the sort of immediate success they enjoyed will be good for them in the long-term.

3. In the previous page of this thread, I addressed the argument that the Shibutanis are limited because they are a sibling team. In short: I don't buy it. The Kerrs were never limited artistically, because there are options open to ice dancers beyond romantic programs. I would argue that rather than constraining them, not being able to do romantic stuff only made the Kerrs more creative. If the Shibutanis are showing a lack of range, it is more likely because of their youth and inexperience, and because their coaching team lacks the creativity needed when working with siblings.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Davis & White just announced in today's teleconference they have changed their FD to Die Fledermaus by Strauss instead of the Nina Rota piece. Their SD music is the same. They will end the SD with JLo's On the Floor which includes the circular steps and the lift.
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Thanks for the news. Did they give a reason for the change? If not, I wonder if this was due to the tighter rules on music choices. Die Fledermaus has a much more definite rhythm than the score from La Strada. I admit I love that score but if it was going to risk a deduction, then it's smart to drop it. Perhaps they will still turn it into an exhibition.
 
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