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Thread: What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

  1. #31
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    Not sure how you can compare a potential program choreographed by Dean, to the proven winning programs of Z/S. Dean is unfamiliar with the ever-changing demands of IJS and, at times, unwilling to align his musical or choreographic vision to said demands. C/P, although very much appreciative of working with Dean, had a rough go of it with "Rigby." Despite the obvious PR benefits of a Dean competitive program, I would rather work with him on show programs.

  2. #32
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    npa, Thanks to the brand new link to ISU Document 1677

    Did you mean that Marina Zoueva's choreography was deliberately bad and biased against V&M and for D&W? If so, that's completely not believable, IMO.

    Certainly, V&M could have skated C&P's choreo from Dean perfectly, but did you really like C&P's Fallin' Sd better than V&M's SD???? Certainly I didn't, and the judges didn't either.

    Or are you only objecting to Samba? Would you really like Rigby better for V&M? That FD is totally not playing to Tessa & Scott's strong point of having great connection and unison????

    It.does.not.compute. to me.

    Please explain.

    ICE DANCE
    Requirements for Technical Rules with ongoing validity
    Redrafts and updates effective July 1st, 2011


    As usual, 34 pages long

    There are a lot of very explicit calling guidelines; more so than previous years. This is a good thing, probably. Perhaps levels called in the Pattern Dance especially will be a lot more uniform between panels.

    However, I'm thrilled to see that the GOE for Serpentine and Reverse Rotational Lifts have been changed so that teams won't feel quite so required to do 4 short lifts rather than 1 long lift and 2 short lifts this season! (PAGE 2)

    and there are specifications for the circular non-touching sequence, which I am really very interested to see. (PAGE 2)

    And the key points of the Rhumba for the SD are specified:

    Sequence with Step # 1 on the Judges’ side (R1)

    Key Point 1Lady & Man Step 3 (Changes of Edge LFOIO)
    Key Point Features 1. Correct Changes of Edge (Outside to Inside
    to Outside)


    Key Point 2Lady Steps 11 to 13 (Wd-LFI Wd-XF OpCho, RBO Wd-XB ClCho, LFI)
    1. Stepped at least two blade lengths wide on Steps #11, #12 and #13
    2. Correct Edges LFI (#11), RBO (#12) and LFI (#13)
    3. Correct placement of free foot
    4. Correct Turns


    Key Point 3Man Steps 11 to 13 (Wd-LFI Wd-XF OpCho, RBO Wd-XB ClCho, LFI)
    1. Stepped at least two blade lengths wide on
    Steps #11, #12 and #13
    2. Correct Edges LFI (#11), RBO (#12) and
    LFI (#13)
    3. Correct placement of free foot
    4. Correct Turns


    Then the same points on the opposite side of the rink.

    The description of what you do to get credit for each key point has changed:

    Inside of having to do at least one Key Point with no error to get level 1, now you have to:

    75% of Pattern Dance Element is completed by both partners
    for level One.

    Level 2 is 100% completed by both partners and one Key Point correct
    Level 3 is 100% completed by both partners and two Key Points correct
    Level 4 is 100% completed by both partners and three Key Points correct

    So this is a bit difference from last year.

    It will be harder to get Levels on Dance Spins. There are additional criteria.

    PATTERN DANCE ELEMENTS
    Reduce by: No higher than:
    Not holding Edges/Steps for required number of beats for one or both partners on a Key
    Point (per Key Point)
    �� in order to facilitate the technical execution of the Key Point 2 grades
    �� for any other reason 1 grade
    Not holding Edges/Steps for required number of beats for one or both partners for more
    than 25% of Steps of the Pattern Dance Element
    -1
    Pattern Dance Element missed through interruption of up to ¼ element -1
    The Timing stuff is aimed at M&K and other teams like them. Previously, Timing was only part of the PCS component explicitly. Now the penalties are spelled out.

    Here's what you need for Level 4 Dance Spin:
    OPTION 1
    4 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (2 by both partners or 3 by one partner and 1 by the other partner,
    at least 1 Difficult Variation being performed by partners simultaneously):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.

    OPTION 2
    At least 2 rotations in each direction.
    AND
    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    There's a lot of explicit stuff about examples of difficult position/variations in spins and lifts.

    and
    One Hand/Arm Rotational Lift Extra Feature:
    Only One Hand/Arm Lift is used to lift, hold and set down the lifted partner, and
    �� the lifting partner is on one foot for at least one rotation;
    �� and/or the lifting partner significantly changes the level of his skating legs (knees) with a continuous motion;
    �� and/or the lifting partner’s holding arm is fully extended in front with a significant distance between partners
    Changes on Twizzle requirements:

    Notes:
    �� A chosen Additional Feature shall be considered for Level if it is executed simultaneously by both partners.
    �� A chosen Additional Feature from Groups A and B shall be considered for a Level if it is fully achieved and established:
    - within the first half rotation of the Twizzle, and
    - held until the number of rotations needed for that Level is fully completed (2 rotations for Level 2, 3 rotations for Level 3, 4 rotations
    for Level 4).
    �� There is no limit on turns or movements performed on one foot between Twizzles for Option 2.
    �� There is no limit on turns or movements performed on the change of foot or the steps between Twizzles for Option 1.
    �� For Set of Sequential/Synchronized Twizzles Option 2, if there is a touch down or a push with free foot between Twizzles, the element will be
    considered as a Set of Sequential/Synchronized Twizzles Option 1.
    And the following is a bit different for Step Sequences

    Adjustments to Levels:
    If all criteria for a Level are met but Difficult Turns for that Level, Twizzles and, if any, the first performed two Extra Features cover:
    �� between 50% and 75% only of the chosen pattern, the Level shall be reduced by one Level;
    �� less than 50% of the chosen pattern, the Level shall be 1, or No Level if the requirements for Level 1 are not met.
    And PCS explicit penalties are new, including for nonuplifting programs :sheesh:

    To Composition and Choreography.
    If there is a story or theme in the program and
    it is not clearly understandable to the audience
    (Free Dance): - 1.0 to - 2.0

    To Interp and Timing
    Violation of music restrictions (Short Dance**)
    (with a maximum total of -2.0):
    Music without audible rhythmic beat:
    �� up to 10 seconds - 0.5
    �� from 10 to 20 seconds - 1.0
    �� from 20 to 30 seconds - 1.5
    �� more than 30 seconds - 2.0
    Incorrect Rhythms:
    �� up to 1 minute - 1.0
    �� more than 1 minute - 2.0
    Incorrect tempo on Pattern Dance Elements (per
    element):
    �� up to ½ element - 1.0
    �� more than ½ element - 2.0
    Pattern Dance Element not started on required beat
    (Short Dance): - 0.5 (per element)
    The music does not have an uplifting effect (Free
    Dance): - 1.0 to - 2.0
    It will take me a while to really chew through all of this, and get believable guesses as to which teams will benefit and which suffer with these changes.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-24-2011 at 03:02 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    npa,
    Certainly, V&M could have skated C&P's choreo from Dean perfectly, but did you really like C&P's Fallin' Sd better than V&M's SD???? Certainly I didn't, and the judges didn't either.

    Or are you only objecting to Samba? Would you really like Rigby better for V&M? That FD is totally not playing to Tessa & Scott's strong point of having great connection and unison????.
    The strongest V-M point is that they could skate anything And this Samba FD show this on 100% They could dance - on floor or on skates - that what made them truth talant.
    As for Dean choreo for them. I think in Rigby Tessa and Scott could show perfection of Dean choreo, Dean moves (i think all agree, that Vanessa and Paul show his old elements in this FD). There greate lines could be usefull for thsi program. This mirrow moves - who could show this better? They not only romatic couple on ice, they could show something unusual, but not with Zueva-Shpilband.
    So this was only my wish list, so But never say never and be afraidm when you dreams will come truth
    I dont think Dean made SD for them. Did he?
    Before i read you didnt like V-M SD and FD. So - why not, @Falling@ will be something different for them
    The problem is they are not a childrens anymore and skaters with such talent need to have exclusive chore for them. Just IMHO.
    And yes, i LOVE, what Tessa-Scott did in this programs, but this isnt about choreo - this is about Tessa and Scott dancing and there greate skills in CDs

  4. #34
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    So much to say ,and only 2 fingers...

    It's not that I wanted to leave R/H and H/G out of my figuring , I do agree that these are 2 worthy teams. R/H can be smooth and strong ,have a pretty good connection,and have a warm presence on the ice .. particularly Kharis (What a smile ). But they also have problem areas ( posture , her shoulders , he seems to break at the hip ). Then there's their material. It's time to stop sticking to either African music or cutesy-poo themes.They've become very one note, which should not be at their ages and the relatively short time they've been on the scene. They've had some really appalling costumes. Again , I have serious concerns that their problems may not be addressed by their current coaches.

    ( I just want to interject here..while waiting for a young team to "mature" , it's never a bad plan to just let them dance.. see: Shibs )

    H/G seem to me to be quick , well connected, innovative and willing to take a risk. At last Canadians, I felt P/I should have been clearly ahead of R/H and the close decision should have been between R/H and H/G. I'm just speaking of my gut reaction to the programs and performances , without looking up the scores and comparing element for element. .. As with many others , the risk taking didn't pay off for H/G in the SD, but take that program out of competition , and it was well performed, intricate, sophisticated and engaging ( which may bode well for their future ). Besides some very memorable elements, there was charm and whimsy in their FD , without it degenerating into the cloyingly sweet..but I thought her costume was all wrong ,and didn't help the cohesiveness of the program.

    I expect a battle royal between these 2 for the 5th spot on the national team..( I assume we only have 6 this year so the 5th place finishers wouldn't be bumped by the return of V/M) I have to say that a year and a half ago R/H would have been generally considered a pretty clear Canada #4 . Now with the advent P/I ( whose success will surely draw new talent to David Islam ),and the rise of W/L's school in the west ( They're building a veritable arsenal of teams )and the D/L school showing signs of excellence ..nothing can be taken for granted, and R/H will really have to fight for their spot next year.

    I need a break..I'm coming back to tackle the Americans, Russians and Italians.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 05-24-2011 at 04:09 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by npa View Post
    As for next season.
    1. Shibs will beat D-W in technik at Nationals again and will be very close to them at Nationals.
    2. P-B will win there first WCh medal. Dont know, who will not, but this must be P-B year. If this two will not made this next year - they will never won WCh medal.
    3. Russian team will Europian champoions next season. Now look, like B-S more close to do this.
    If they put this as a LSAT question, I think you would become a paralegal.

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    If a Russian team wins Europeans then Pechalat & Bourzat wont medal at Worlds. Once one of the younger Russians moves past P&B it is over for them, unless it was a result of a huge fall like how the Shibutanis beat them by default this year. The only team P&B could lose to at Europeans and still possibly medal at Worlds later is Faiella & Scali perhaps.

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    In 2007 Delobel-Shonfelder won gold at ECh and Denkova-Staviisky were third. At WCh Den-St won, Del-Shon were out of the podium (without big mistakes). So - why P-B couldnt made this?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by npa View Post
    In 2007 Delobel-Shonfelder won gold at ECh and Denkova-Staviisky were third. At WCh Den-St won, Del-Shon were out of the podium (without big mistakes). So - why P-B couldnt made this?
    Denkova-Staviisky CD and OD weren't good at ECh.
    If P-B lose to B&S at ECh (assuming not due to some freak mistakes), they are done.

  9. #39
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I think people are harking back to the old pre COP era when they are so quick to say teams are permanently going to be out of the medals, just because they did not do well at this year's worlds or had a bad season.

    I don't think C&P will have to eternally take a back seat to W&P because they were conclusively behind them at Worlds, nor are they doomed to be passed by P&I.

    I don't think F&S have necessarily lost it forever, because last season was a disaster, or that P&B absolutely must medal at Nice.

    In the COP era, the rules change every year--and usually to the tune of some 30 pages or more of changes. Every change is an opportunity to the team that reads the rules and adapts them best to their own strengths and weaknesses. And every team that unflinchingly looks at their relative weaknesses, and works persistently to improve those weaknesses, has a great chance to move up.

    Every year.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I think people are harking back to the old pre COP era when they are so quick to say teams are permanently going to be out of the medals, just because they did not do well at this year's worlds or had a bad season.

    I don't think C&P will have to eternally take a back seat to W&P because they were conclusively behind them at Worlds, nor are they doomed to be passed by P&I.

    I don't think F&S have necessarily lost it forever, because last season was a disaster, or that P&B absolutely must medal at Nice.

    In the COP era, the rules change every year--and usually to the tune of some 30 pages or more of changes. Every change is an opportunity to the team that reads the rules and adapts them best to their own strengths and weaknesses. And every team that unflinchingly looks at their relative weaknesses, and works persistently to improve those weaknesses, has a great chance to move up.

    Every year.
    1. I think most of us question IF Crone/Poirier WILL "unflinchingly [look] at their relative weakness, and [work] to improve" more than anything else. I know P/I have a fairly solid understanding of what they need to do to improve. And from World Juniors to Thornhill and Thornhill to Canadian Nationals, I saw such a dramatic improvement I could hardly believe it. I didn't see them on the JGP, but their results from those events to JW corroborate that they have a very good learning curve. And the Rhumba is an easier CD than the GW, which helps the lower ranked teams, I'd think

    I'd also point out that we've seen C/P struggle with getting levels this year. But you yourself mentioned that they tended to take on programs that explained away/rationalized their weaknesses (lack of on ice connection being the most notable one) as opposed to work to overcome them.

    2. I think P/B must medal at Nice for them to be motivated enough to continue. F/S less so. But with these two teams, it's less that they lost it forever and more that I wonder what happens after your best shot? In the case of F/S, they had their best shot and took home Euros silver with two program victories, Olympics top 5, and World bronze. P/B had their best shot this year - the upcoming teams were still upcoming (we all thought), multiple retirements (eight of the top 11 teams from Olympics have split/retired) and a rocketship of a season. Now, can you imagine what happens next season if the Shibs improve, I/K come fully prepared, V/M revitalized and D/W on a mission?
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 05-25-2011 at 10:48 AM. Reason: addition

  11. #41
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    I don't know about B/S becoming European champions over P/B or F/S next season. I don't think it's going to happen. If excessive politicking was being done to move B/S up the ladder, they wouldn't have finished behind the then-Canadian-#3 W/P at Worlds. And I don't think B/S are better than P/B of their own accord. I/K could even pass B/S next season if they skate really well. The judges aren't afraid to place B/S lower if they deserve it - IIRC, they finished behind Hoffman/Zavozin in the SD at the GP Final, with just one or two bobbles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npa View Post
    In 2007 Delobel-Shonfelder won gold at ECh and Denkova-Staviisky were third. At WCh Den-St won, Del-Shon were out of the podium (without big mistakes). So - why P-B couldnt made this?
    The dominant 2 teams in the World were not from North America at the time which is clearly the case now. Europeans is little more than one of the set ups for who wants to win the bronze at Worlds until one of V/M or D/W retire. And both DelSchoes and DenStav were veteran teams, not a much younger team like the Russians.

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    I have high expectations for Bates & Samuelson, especially if they keep An American in Paris.
    It would be a shame to never get to see that FD.

    Good news is they will be performing soon!
    http://www.skateforhope.org/site/Pag...ame=Headliners
    Emily has confirmed they will be performing as scheduled. Hopefully this means Evan has had a successful recovery.

    Interesting that Denney and Coughlin will also be performing...

  14. #44
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    Really interesting thread! It's such a long time to the first competitions, so it is fun to speculate. My take?

    Russians: Never count them out. I don't think they will challenge for a world medal next season, and I think the current #1 and #2 teams in the world are tops until they decide to retire. That being said, there are a whole bunch of young guns coming up from Junior that will make for interesting competitions over the next few years. I don't know how I/K will do over the long run. They are still very young, and need lots of refinement and improvement. It wasn't the season they hoped for this year. Maybe with a new coaching team they will have more success. We shall see. Sometimes these things just take time and work. There will be lots of teams pushing them. I've always liked B/S, and I think we have to not completely discount K/A. She is just lovely, and he is a quick study. In the old world of skating, such a partnership could never see big success. In the new world of CoP, over a few years, it is possible. He is not completely new to skating. He helped out with coaching dance with young teams at Canton. He also previously skated pairs and singles. On the world stage, I think Russia will absolutely secure 2 spots for 2013 Worlds, and very likely 3. I don't think we will see a Russian on the podium at world's next year. I do agree with others that Russia needs to re-think their strategies relative to CoP. This is a new world in ice dance. If they can master how to use the CoP effectively, while keeping the ability to create great program concepts and choreography, I think they could challenge for the podium quite easily, and maybe even top stop.

    Americans: I don't think anyone will touch D/W at home. Yes, the Shibs had a fabulous season, but it will be difficult for them to repeat these acheivements. They have been a team for a very long time, and their basic skills are spectacular, but I think they will need to grow and mature in order to really find themselves in this position again. Had P/B not fallen, P/B would have been on the podium. Shibs winning 3rd is a fluke. And some felt that it should have been W/P of Canada instead, on the strength of their SD and then clean FD. I'm not really creep'd out by the brother/sister relationship. I think their coaches will do a great job making that work. But now we have Samuelson/Bates back this year, and there is Chock/Zuerlein. And more teams coming up the ranks. I think US ice dance is in great shape, and there is little danger of losing 3 spots to worlds for the foreseeable future. At world's, I think D/W will find themselves back in 2nd if V/M are healthy all season. As wonderful as D/W are, I think V/M have an extra edge in quality of crisp, clean edges, absolute unison when required, and very smooth skating.

    Europeans: I'm glad to see F/S back in competition. I really hope they have a wonderful year, and their team-mates C/L as well. C/L have been around the senior circuit for a few years now, and have not shown a lot of improvement these last couple of years. I hope they find new coaches in North America - ones that will be able to help them address their specific weaknesses, and make the most out of CoP. I really like them. I have always just loved P/B and my heart is broken they did not achieve their world medal. I love their uniqueness. Their programs are always interesting and different from anyone else. I think they can win bronze at World's next year. As for the rest, Spain has a young, developing team, and perhaps there are more that will come up and surprise us. The beautiful thing about CoP, which was proven by the Shibs this year, is that results are not about waiting your turn and reputation. It plays some part, but not like it used to. Anyone who appears with excellent skating skills, great programs, wonderful presentation, and puts everything together when it counts, regardless of where they come from, can succeed in the sport.

    APAC: I'm only adding this section because we haven't discussed Japan, China, Australia. Reeds seem to be consistently in more or less the same spot. Perhaps they will begin to make a move? Will Alison find a new partner? Will any of the other Pacific Rim teams find their way to training sites in North America or Russia or France, and make a real move in the standings? Anything is possible.


    And the Canadians: Well, I obviously am a little biased about Canada. On the world stage, I think a healthy V/M will reign supreme until they retire. They are a once in a generation team, and I really am so excited to see them stick around for a few more years and continue to grow and develop and leave their legacy. It will be tough for W/P to challenge for top 5 at the worlds again, but if they have new-found confidence and energy, have not just a great SD but also a great FD next season, and continue to work really, really hard on their weaknesses and their strengths, I think they could even medal. I do think they are back on an upward trajectory, and I expect they will be solidly the #2 Canadian team. Between V/M and W/P, we will have 3 spots at worlds for the foreseeable future. I am less sure about C/P and P/I. As has been said above, IF they take a long hard look at their weaknesses and work on them, get expert help on packaging, and take lots of off-ice dance classes (especially modern dance), I think they have a shot at improving their position. I think they can be solidly #3 in Canada, and top 10 in the world. But they will need to really work at this. And they will maybe need to get some outside coaching help. I really like that C/P bring something different than the other 2 in Canada. I am really, really cheering for them to make the changes they need to make in order to see the success they desire. P/I are very new yet, and very young. They had injuries this year, and problems with consistency. They have the potential to be dynamite. But it is a little early to tell. They need a few years to develop, mature and find their own style. Being V/M lite will not help them. They need to be unique by themselves. I think it would be expected to make a lot of improvement when a team is new in the first few years. But will that growth continue now that they were Junior champions in Canada, 2nd in the world at Junior, and now the 4th team in Canada? I hope so. As for the 5th and 6th and 7th teams, I think these will continue to push each other. Maybe its just me, but I really don't think H/G are a good match physically. They make it work, and are charming, and have tons of personality, but I just wasn't that impressed with them. I felt they were a little over-marked, especially in the SD. R/H absolutely need new material and likely new coaches. They are the definition of stagnation, and need a complete overall - programs, presentation, the whole bit. And I believe A/T are still skating next season. They were only together 2 years, and made really great progress. Don't count them out either for top 5 in Canada. I think they suffer a little of the same mis-match situation as H/G, but it doesn't appear to be as bad a H/G. And then there are always teams that will appear at Senior, or that move up from Novice or Junior and surprise everyone. It should be a really interesting top 10 in Canada this year. My goodness! Such an embarrassment of riches!!!

  15. #45
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    I think ice dancing is still somewhat political and D/W now being the reigning World Champions will give them the slight edge in future competitions with V/M for now even if both teams are fully healthy and at their best, despite that I think V/M are the better team. Personally I consider them technically equal but V/M artistically much stronger, but I doubt that is how the scores will come out now. V/M's injury opened the door for D/W and they took it and ran with it, and with the nature of ice dance it is theirs to lose for the forseeable future IMO. Anyway I could be wrong but that is my current hunch. BTW I am in no way questoining D/W's World title. They were the better and more prepared team at Worlds, as they should have been with far more preparation and training time, and rightfully won. I am just saying how I think things will be even if V/M and D/W both stay completely healthy next season now that D/W have the momentum.

    I also have a feeling V/M will retire before Sochi, especialy if they start losing regularly to D/W which I think might happen. D/W on the other hand I am pretty sure will be there in Sochi, regardless what happens results wise between now and then.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 05-25-2011 at 07:27 PM.

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