V/M won their medal in 2008 by winning the FD,scoring a 105 something.D/S weren't there but still it was a big mark.It's a totally different situation.Of course their next Worlds weren't as good with the surgery and everything and they even lost the FD for the 3rd place to D/W.They came back to win the Olympics allthough they lost the GPF and this season they lost again at Worlds.So nobody really knows what is going to happen next year.I wouldn't consider P/B a lock for the 3rd place Nice or not.I did the mistake to consider them a lock this season but the Skate Gods are not kidding
The way I see it, ice dancing tends to become the most unpredictable discpline (irony?) and teams would consider themselves very lucky to be on the podium in Euros or Worlds.
Yes, any team could be on podium. All depend how they all will be ready for next season.
So did Chait/Sakhnovski (3rd in 2002, 6th in 2003). Surprises tend not to repeat themselves.
Krylova/Fedorov in 1993 as well.Next season they even had to change their rock n roll FD and go back to their Cha Cha but they still didn't climb up the rankings.
Of course there is Klimova/Ponomarenko that went on to win more medals, but I'd consider them a very special case.
I understand that you are holding firmly to the larger position that surprise results don't recur, but this is not the best example upon which to base that argument.
In fairness to them, that was a very odd worlds for dance. The judging all the way around along with some of the skating was wacky. Both D/W and V/M made silly errors in various segments. It's arguable that if Meryl and Charlie had been cleaner in both their CD and OD, there never would have been a controversy due to V/M being on the comeback trail. But you could also argue that if Tessa and Scott had skated a clean OD, their margin would have been large enough to keep them safely clear of being challenged by D/W. Referring to my previous post, it was most definitely one of those events with an unclear winner where the results are debatable. Let's not forget that Isabel and Olivier had established themselves as the clear favorites that season for the title before her shoulder injury. Also, K/N were still contenders coming in and so were F/S based both on their finish as the previous worlds and their results that season. And don't forget about P/B, they were improving as well. The landscape of the sport's hierarchy was shifting that season and a lot of teams were suddenly bunched together and were relatively equal in the eyes of both fans and judges.
At worlds, the CD played a major factor in the final result. IIRC, the French feed for that event called out D/W for "jumping" one of their turns in their paso in each pattern. While the rest of the dance was very good, that error likely contributed to the margin between them and the top three leading into the OD, which itself was a total mess (Have you ever seen so many falls and stumbles in a dance event?). I think the judging that year came down to who made the fewest mistakes, not who was the most excellent at any one segment. Let's face it, we've been spoiled for the last two seasons by the technical brilliance of D/W and V/M across all segments of ice dance. There were glimpses of it before in certain segments, usually the FD. But the reason they are dominant now is because they improved other segments where they were weaker. So now we've come to expect blowouts by the winner or the top two. Back then, there was far less clarity about who was the best. It's hard to blame the judges and certainly not the skaters in a murky circumstance like that.
1. The thing is as soon as the Shibs came 4th in the SD, there were accusations of Shpilband/Zoueva politicking heavily for their teams. Novitski, on Russian television, came right out and stated that Shpilband was somehow cheating (something like he receives changes to the rules earlier than everyone else which allows his teams to train better, I believe). Meanwhile, people question the PCS gotten by certain teams as a matter of course. Nothing so extreme as the accusations rendered in 2002, of course, but they still exist.
2. I don't think calling it a fluke delegitamizes the medal at all. One soccer player, when asked about a gorgeous beauty of a goal and was asked if he was lucky, said "the harder I train, the luckier I get." I think that pretty much articulates how I feel here. Especially when the scores are as close as they are.
Regarding politcking, the only real area where those accusations can be levied for any team/coaches is at PCS scores and GOE. Base values are very hard to fudge. Frankly much of this apparent backlash towards the Shibs seems to be about PCS rather than TES or GOE. (BTW, IP please don't take any of my posts as being directed at you personally. I am writing on this thread largely to respond to a general trend about how the Shibs's result is being perceived. I usually find your posts to be thought-provoking if not delightful. ) The backlash seems to center around the persistent belief, which dates back to 6.0 scoring, that ice dancers must present one very narrow image. They must be a representation of a fully physically and emotionally mature adult romantic couple first and excellent technicians second. In other words, their artistic merit (to use an out of date term) can only be derived from their ability to emote and "act" the part. (This is true both among fans and other skaters and coaches.) What some seem to be resisting is twofold. First, that PCS is largely not about those things at all. Most of the sub-categories are tied to technical details. The others judge the quality of the dance relative to its intended theme. There is no measurement for heat, romance, maturity, etc. While the early days of COP did not see this standard applied very consistently, the last couple of seasons have offered much greater clarity. If there is displeasure directed at the Shibs from some quarters, I suspect it's in favor of either P/B or W/P because they reflect a lot of these classic or old-school qualities of presentation with which many skating fans are more comfortable. Still, PCS seems to derive more from technique than not. Second, as my first post on this thread indicates, there is another approach which can be taken to crafting presentation, lighthearted whimsy and humor. Sadly, it's one which the Shibs seem to be the only practitioners of at it the moment. The Kerrs ventured down that road on occasion, but they much preferred the avant garde to the whimsical. Therefore, I would wager that because the brand of Skating Marina has hit upon for Maia and Alex is less familiar to skating fans today, it will take time to be accepted.
Last edited by jcoates; 05-29-2011 at 04:28 PM.
I'm just loving this thread . So many interesting points are being made. And I'm looking forward to doris finishing chewing on how she thinks the various rule changes will affect the skaters.
From my limited-in-technical-expertise viewpoint, with the plethora of talentad skaters all vying for a limited number of assignments, medals , high placements.. choreography and presentation ( always important IMO ) could be absolutely vital to success in the upcoming season. I'm just taking it as a given that all the couples will be working to improve or refine their technique. We all know that injury or unexpected slips can always throw a monkey wrench in the works ,and we hope that they won't play too prominent a part. So setting those things aside , I've been trying to wrap my head around what to expect , to hope for and the likelihood of seeing it.
I agree that D/W and V/M will still be in a class by themselves ...and their programs and presentation are always standouts anyway , so I'm setting them aside as well. Now we get down to the nitty gritty...
The two teams that stood out the most for me this year ,in regard to a well thought out, cohesive presentation, were P/B and the Shibs , so their finish was all the more..I don't know what..poignant ?..ironic ?.. to me.
P/B had two character pieces , both well choreographed and different from each other. Both used very familiar music and themes. But they were set apart from the many times we'd seen the themes and music used in the past by their costuming.The cut and design of each set of costumes was very true to the different eras and characters they portrayed, yet the two programs were tied together by the very effective use of a vibrant red in both..that demanded attention and sparked recognition.
The Shibs made the same sort of statement in a different way, but to no less effect. They , too , used familiar music but their programs were pure dance , as opposed to character pieces. The unifying effect was the cut of her dress.. recognizably similar, though executed in different colours for each program , with just the right amount of sparkle. In the FD ,anyone who'd seen the SD knew who they were the instant they took the ice.The simple bodice showed off her clean, delicate lines, while the skirt just flowed and floated like a dream. Both colours were lovely on her, and the simplicty of the costume really let you focus on the beauty of their skating.
Now I have to go to the grocery store ..i'll come back with the rest.
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 05-29-2011 at 03:53 PM.
The Shibs embody one old-school quality that is still part of COP--really, really great timing. You have to see them to believe them. Also, they have an effortless speed that does not show up well on TV, because they are not working at it. Check how blurred the signs appear though, and you'll appreciate it even on TV. D&W are significantly faster, and V&M too, but pretty much no one else is significantly faster than they are. Thus they avoid the "junior skater" label. Considering they combine that speed with the ability to score Level 4's, and they have a recipe for high scores.
I expect their speed to be better this year, for that matter.
I wouldn't be shocked, if they skate clean, if they are 3rd or 4th again this year.