What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

lcd

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Mar 11, 2007
So many of the points I have been thinking have been so well said already by JCoates.

The use of the words "fluke" and "backlash" with regard to the Shibutanis seems simply insulting. Implied is the notion that they somehow did something "weird" or "inappropriate" to place 3rd at a major championship.

The Shibutanis came up with really smart programs. They were ready to compete at every competition and showed improvement throughout the season. They delivered when it counted. They did not fall. They did not make anyone else fall. They did not make anyone else make mistakes which cost crucial points.

They faced some huge pressure skating at their first world championship in front of an audience that I cannot imagine was supporting them to any genuinely helpful extent given who else was in the running for medals. To handle themselves the way that they did has to be a huge confidence boost.

As a teacher for talented-gifted students, I come in contact with kids Maia's age (16) just about every day and I can tell you that I am profoundly impressed by her poise both on and off the ice. Both she and Alex strike me as so much more mature than their years. They seem plenty astute as athletes and competitors, and have surrounded themselves with the kind of people who make more smart decisions than "dumb" ones.

Having been a fan of figure skating for over 4 decades, I for one am thrilled to see ice dance go through the evolution it has over the past decade with its emphasis on blending "dance" with athleticism, occassional flashes of recognition for diversity in its various forms, and competition results which give some hint that it is actually a sport as well.

Backlash seems the kind of phrase warranted when athletes show cringe-worthy immaturity, show a lack of sportsmanship by publicly bad-mouthing others, or revelations are uncovered proving manipulation of results. Just my opinion, but "fluke" and "backlash" both seem like words, even if just carelessly used, which suggest resentment over things that the Shibs didn't anything to deserve.
 
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100yen

You can't explain witchcraft
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Jan 8, 2009
Because other teams could improve. For example a year ago the young Russians, I/K were beating S/S pretty soundly. Then S/S improved and I/K stagnated. But now with I/k working with new coaches etc, that could change again by next year. I kind of feel like the Shibs are a bit limited artistically.

I can see W/B overtaking the Shibs too. And I think P/B ARE the better team, and maybe with new coaching they will improve.

You don't think S/S are going to improve along with the other teams? Even last year with what many consider to be their worst programs, they still improved technically and improved their their twizzle sequence. As previously mentioned by others, I/K's "flaws" were generally excused on the junior circuit (as with a lot of junior teams by the nature of the level), where judges this year are starting to crack down. Yes, it's likely they will improve, but in my opinion they have a much bigger job catching up to Maia and Alex than Maia and Alex had catching up to them last year. I/K need to rework quite a bit of their basic skills to gain the flow of the top teams.
 

janetfan

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Joined
May 15, 2009
"The chemistry between them is contagious."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDkJ0PAMIvo&feature=relmfu

I really like the special connection the Shibs have on the ice and watching them skate makes me want to skate too.

Despite being so young they medaled at both of their GP's, at Natls, 4CC and Worlds.

Even their critics have to recognize their consistency but I like them simply because they are so enjoyable to watch.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

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Joined
Jun 3, 2009
So many of the points I have been thinking have been so well said already by JCoates.

The use of the words "fluke" and "backlash" with regard to the Shibutanis seems simply insulting. Implied is the notion that they somehow did something "weird" or "inappropriate" to place 3rd at a major championship.

........

Backlash seems the kind of phrase warranted when athletes show cringe-worthy immaturity, show a lack of sportsmanship by publicly bad-mouthing others, or revelations are uncovered proving manipulation of results. Just my opinion, but "fluke" and "backlash" both seem like words, even if just carelessly used, which suggest resentment over things that the Shibs didn't anything to deserve.

I understand, and given that I used the word backlash, I feel like I should explain.

If you go to other boards, there is a lot of resentment directed at the COPification of the sport, and you see that here too. But, while there are skaters/performances who are strongly related to that (Carolina Kostner Worlds 2008, Patrick Chan SC/CoR 2010) there are no coaches really associated with that. Except in ice dance, with Zoueva/Shpilband leading the way. Did you know that since the introduction of COP, they haven't had a team miss the podium at Worlds (B/A: 2005-2007, V/M: 2008-2011, D/W: 2010-2011)? So if you don't like the shift that took place, you don't like Z/S, plain and simple. This year, they had two medal sweeps: US Nationals and Worlds. They could've added a third if V/M stayed at 4CC. I myself grow cautious at the idea of one dance school so thoroughly dominating the scene. If there is resentment (and I would ask that we separate resentment from surprise: I don't resent the fact that the Shibs beat B/S, W/P or P/B. I was surprised by that, though), it'll be the consequence of these two factors.

----

As of next season, the top five teams with be dominated by two coaching schools both operating out of Michigan. Z/S of course, but Krylova/Camerlengo have W/P and P/B. The 7th and 8th place teams with be coached by Morosov and his team. So with 8 of the top ten teams centred on three schools (C/Z with Z/S as well, at the moment), it'll be interesting to see how things play out next year. I'm most curious about C/L and the unretired F/S. Presumably the latter is stating with Linichuk? Or are they going to work with Krylova/Camerlengo (remember, he was to join their coaching team)? According to wikipedia, it's the latter (which is awesome), and should be fascinating. I suspect that C/L will be dumped a little next season, which is ashame.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
You don't think S/S are going to improve along with the other teams? Even last year with what many consider to be their worst programs, they still improved technically and improved their their twizzle sequence. As previously mentioned by others, I/K's "flaws" were generally excused on the junior circuit (as with a lot of junior teams by the nature of the level), where judges this year are starting to crack down. Yes, it's likely they will improve, but in my opinion they have a much bigger job catching up to Maia and Alex than Maia and Alex had catching up to them last year. I/K need to rework quite a bit of their basic skills to gain the flow of the top teams.

I agree that I/K have to work on a lot technically. But if they can catch up technically they should pass the Shibs. I'm not a big fan of brother and sister teams and think there's a lot these type of teams can't do artistically. In terms of artistry just in general I think I/K have more potential. Better lines, better style etc.
 

chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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For example a year ago the young Russians, I/K were beating S/S pretty soundly. Then S/S improved and I/K stagnated. But now with I/k working with new coaches etc, that could change again by next year. I kind of feel like the Shibs are a bit limited artistically.

I can see W/B overtaking the Shibs too. And I think P/B ARE the better team, and maybe with new coaching they will improve.

Their last year as juniors, Alex Shibutani had a growth spurt and Maia didn't grow; she was so small compared to Alex that they took a hit in their JGP scores because certain moves looked awkward. But Maia then had a major growth spurt last summer and it was a whole new ball game. The Shibs beat I/K at NHK 2010, winning bronze, and they beat them again at Worlds. For a new senior dance team to make their GP debut with two bronze medals and GPF first alternate status shows how exceptional they are.

Maia and Alex are 16 and 20, and W/P 22 and 24, whereas P/B are 27 and 30. The younger teams have more improvement potential than P/B does.
 

bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006
Their last year as juniors, Alex Shibutani had a growth spurt and Maia didn't grow; she was so small compared to Alex that they took a hit in their JGP scores because certain moves looked awkward. But Maia then had a major growth spurt last summer and it was a whole new ball game. The Shibs beat I/K at NHK 2010, winning bronze, and they beat them again at Worlds. For a new senior dance team to make their GP debut with two bronze medals and GPF first alternate status shows how exceptional they are.

Maia and Alex are 16 and 20, and W/P 22 and 24, whereas P/B are 27 and 30. The younger teams have more improvement potential than P/B does.

I never said the Shibs didn't deserve to beat I/K this year or that they aren't amazing technically. But as I said before I find sibling teams limited.
 

silverlake22

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Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I agree that I/K have to work on a lot technically. But if they can catch up technically they should pass the Shibs. I'm not a big fan of brother and sister teams and think there's a lot these type of teams can't do artistically. In terms of artistry just in general I think I/K have more potential. Better lines, better style etc.

The thing I wonder about with I/K is lack of focus/motivation. Nikita is a nervous performer, which hurts them, and Elena seems to have a lot of interests outside of skating and reminds me a little of Mirai in the sense that she's so talented but also highly emotional and not particularly mature or focused, or at least it seems that way. In some ways it seems like that girl would rather be an actress or model than a figure skater, judging from all the posed pictures she likes to take of herself (looking gorgeous, of course). So my question is, does she want it enough?
 

bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006
The thing I wonder about with I/K is lack of focus/motivation. Nikita is a nervous performer, which hurts them, and Elena seems to have a lot of interests outside of skating and reminds me a little of Mirai in the sense that she's so talented but also highly emotional and not particularly mature or focused, or at least it seems that way. In some ways it seems like that girl would rather be an actress or model than a figure skater, judging from all the posed pictures she likes to take of herself (looking gorgeous, of course). So my question is, does she want it enough?

:lol: I think we will have to see what happens with the new coaching. Because there were reports that Zhulin wasn't around much.
 

silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
:lol: I think we will have to see what happens with the new coaching. Because there were reports that Zhulin wasn't around much.

Yeah. IMO she might be better off ditching Nikita and finding a new partner. She's a lot better than he is, at least in competition, and it would probably easier for them to date that way.
 

bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006
Yeah. IMO she might be better off ditching Nikita and finding a new partner. She's a lot better than he is, at least in competition, and it would probably easier for them to date that way.

Nikita had a back injury last summer, which hurt their training progress. He's extremely talented and on paper has better skating skills than Elena. He's also quite young. If he doesn't get his act together in maybe 2/3 years then sure I think a new partner will be in order. But you don't break up a promising partnership at the first sign of trouble. Thats why the US has such issues with pairs.

But people forget that last year was I/k's first year on the international circuit. The Shibs ARE more experienced than they are and have been together longer. Give them time to get use to the pressure.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
It is amazing the Shibutanis went from a disaesterous junior season where they missed the World junior podium to winning a medal at World seniors. Ice dance never used to be this unpredictable.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
I agree that I/K have to work on a lot technically. But if they can catch up technically they should pass the Shibs. I'm not a big fan of brother and sister teams and think there's a lot these type of teams can't do artistically. In terms of artistry just in general I think I/K have more potential. Better lines, better style etc.

The Duchensays were brother and sister and were amazing artistically with some of the most captivating programs and interpretation ever. It helped them be competitive with technically far superior teams like Klimova & Ponomarenko and Usova & Zhulin. I dont think the Shibutanis will ever be as strong as they are artistically though.
 

KKonas

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Oct 31, 2009
The Duchensays were brother and sister and were amazing artistically with some of the most captivating programs and interpretation ever. It helped them be competitive with technically far superior teams like Klimova & Ponomarenko and Usova & Zhulin. I dont think the Shibutanis will ever be as strong as they are artistically though.

The Shibs are not like the Duchesnays in any respect, although the Duchesnays were great fun to watch and were also considerably older than the Shibs, the Shibs have an elegance that the Duchesnays never had, so I think they can present more classical programs and still be relevant. Not all dance has to be steamy, sexy or romantic.
 

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft
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Jan 8, 2009
The Shibs are not like the Duchesnays in any respect, although the Duchesnays were great fun to watch and were also considerably older than the Shibs, the Shibs have an elegance that the Duchesnays never had, so I think they can present more classical programs and still be relevant. Not all dance has to be steamy, sexy or romantic.

:clap: Exactly. There will always be people who dislike sibling teams no matter what they do, even though I find this logic quite puzzling. What's wrong with a brother and sister dancing together? You have to have a pretty..umm...twisted way of looking at things if you think brother/sister dances are intended to suggest something.
Figure skating is changing every day, the world is changing...it's important to keep an open mind. Automatically shutting down any prospect of a brother/sister team actually being excellent and being blinded by a self-created "eww" factor is a bit mind-boggling to me. :disapp:

We might as well ban every father-daughter dance because apparently it's too gross for family members to dance together. I just can't see the logic. At all.

Alas, people are entitled to their own opinions, and I will respect that.

EDIT: I agree there are certain challenges to choreographing for a sibling team, but often limitations can become a strength as skaters and coaches are forced to take the "less traveled" (aka non-generic-steamy-romantic-sweetheart) road and come up with something actually creative. The sibling connection also provides for a certain charm they wouldn't have otherwise. If it wasn't for a brother/sister relationship in their FD this year, it could have easily become a cheesy, sappy, also-ran dance. But instead they made it sweet, elegant, a little sentimental, and timeless.

Everyone only goes on and on about the artistic limitations, but they completely forget the possibilities. Siblings skating together can be magical, one just has to think outside of the typical ice dance box. :)
 
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gmyers

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Mar 6, 2010
I don't care that S/S are siblings but their program last year in the FD with the horrible fake smiles throughout were so weird. If that's what being siblings mean-plaster smiles throughout programs-that is just ew.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
romantic.
Exactly. There will always be people who dislike sibling teams no matter what they do, even though I find this logic quite puzzling. What's wrong with a brother and sister dancing together? You have to have a pretty..umm...twisted way of looking at things if you think brother/sister dances are intended to suggest something.

There's nothing wrong with siblings dancing together. Its just that there are forms of dance that can be lmited because your a sibling team. Ie a Sibling team dancing a very passionate tango.. For example.

And there's a level of cookie cutterness about them. Brilliant team technically absolutely! But brilliant team artistically-not so much.

I think I/K have more potential artistically just in general, but of course I/K HAVE to improve technically.
 

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft
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Jan 8, 2009
I don't care that S/S are siblings but their program last year in the FD with the horrible fake smiles throughout were so weird. If that's what being siblings mean-plaster smiles throughout programs-that is just ew.

You are missing the entire point of the program. It's to smile. To celebrate dancing a be happy about it. They are out there enjoying themselves and trying send out the message "keep smiling through the good and bad times" to the audience. What do you expect them to do? They're having fun and keeping up the positive message. Surely even you smile when you are excited and glad about something?

Also, you seem to pop up and say the same thing every time someone mentions the Shibutanis. For example, the Worlds Free Dance thread. You obviously do not like them and made it clear that for some reason you harbor some kind of bitterness for them that you only explain through snarky and shallow comments about their "smiles" and how it's just "ew". Your troll-like behavior only proves that Maia and Alex have reached a point where they are good enough to have antis who will knock them down out of jealousy, "favorites" loosing to them, or whatever other reason you happen to use to justify your repetitive stream of hate.

There's nothing wrong with siblings dancing together. Its just that there are forms of dance that can be lmited because your a sibling team. Ie a Sibling team dancing a very passionate tango.. For example.

And there's a level of cookie cutterness about them. Brilliant team technically absolutely! But brilliant team artistically-not so much.

I think I/K have more potential artistically just in general, but of course I/K HAVE to improve technically.

I see what you mean, but I think I addressed much of that in the last part of my last post. Anyways, I/K do have an incredible amount of potential! I think their power is probably their major advantage. and Elena's balletic posture. I feel like Nikita still has some catching up with her to do in this respect, but I would never count them out. I hope the new coaching helps them establish a better connection with each other as well :)
 
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chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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Zhulin has commented on I/K's lack of dedication to training, and I think the problems I/K had all season with their FD reflects that. They never performed that FD well, and their final performance at Worlds was the worst of the season. Another poster commented on Ilniuk's similarities to Mirai Nagasu, and IMO that was right on, especially in respect to the hard work needed to perform consistently well.
 

bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006
Zhulin has commented on I/K's lack of dedication to training, and I think the problems I/K had all season with their FD reflects that. They never performed that FD well, and their final performance at Worlds was the worst of the season. Another poster commented on Ilniuk's similarities to Mirai Nagasu, and IMO that was right on, especially in respect to the hard work needed to perform consistently well.

Except for the fact that Mirai has a very involved coach, and there were rumors that Zhulin was not involved, and even rumors that they wanted him to train them harder (and he then responded with I know how to peak you don't) Tarasova was screaming about their progress and Zhulin's lack of training from the start of early season.

And as for Elena, I believe at Russian Nationals, Tarasova was suggesting HE and not Elena was the problem. She's not normally the one who is messing up in big competitions.

I/K are a wait and see. If they still have these kind of issues next season then they absolutely are the problem.
 
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