What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in the men?

let`s talk · Jun 2, 2011

Joesitz said:
Brian and Plush were the top jumpers during their era. Is that what masculinity is all about - Jumps?

Girls can jump too. Masculinity is about being, or should I say skating manly, with mannish manfulness at its best. Both Brian and Plush have this stuff. Hope that helps.

silverlake22 · Jun 2, 2011

One thing that makes it harder for Abbott, though I still hope he can have a comeback, is the deep men's field in the US. For someone like Verner or Joubert, that isn't really an issue, sure they have competition in Brezina and Amodio but they aren't in jeopardy of not making World teams and even when they bomb, they are still the number 2 male skater in their respective nations. In that sense, it makes it easier for them to stick around and try new things, make big changes, etc, because at least for now, they don't have much to worry about and heading into Sochi will likely still always be able to compete on the GP, at Euros, and Worlds.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 2, 2011

let`s talk said:
Girls can jump too. Masculinity is about being, or should I say skating manly, with mannish manfulness at its best. Both Brian and Plush have this stuff. Hope that helps.

It's stereotyping for me. More John Wayne than Brad Pitt. Pick your choice.

I remember Weir's Otono and it didn't look girlish to me. In fact I don't think any Lady skater of today could do that music justice. Maybe Mao. The others are all superficial ballet-like without the depth there is in that music.

Tonichelle · Jun 2, 2011

Joesitz said:
It's stereotyping for me. More John Wayne than Brad Pitt. Pick your choice.

aren't both considered to be hollywood's manly men?

that's like comparing Plushy to Evan... maybe John Wayne vs.. hmmmmmmmm ok yeah I guess Brad Pitt works... cowboy vs prettyboy.... :laugh:

evangeline · Jun 2, 2011

let`s talk said:
Girls can jump too. Masculinity is about being, or should I say skating manly, with mannish manfulness at its best. Both Brian and Plush have this stuff. Hope that helps.

Care to define what exactly is "mannish manfulness"? It sounds rather vague to me...(not to mention redundant).

Violet Bliss · Jun 2, 2011

I'm Your Man

silverlake22 · Jun 2, 2011

Joubert and Verner are the only manly men left in figure skating. Maybe Plushenko if he comes back and I guess KVDP though he's not in the same tier.

Takahashi, Weir, Lysacek, Amodio are all metro and flashy btwn their costumes and attitudes/expressions/hairstyles.

Chan, Kozuka, Brezina, Abbott, Oda, Rippon, Gatchinski, Hanyu are all either too young or too prettyboyish to be manly men type of skaters.

ImaginaryPogue · Jun 2, 2011

Tonichelle, I think a more apt comparison might be John Wayne and Montgomery Clift. I think masculinity is broad enough to encompass both, though I know others would disagree.

Krislite · Jun 2, 2011

Joesitz said:
Your type of rationale is not alone. Many people believe that boys wear blue and girls wear pink. Brian and Plush were the top jumpers during their era. Is that what masculinity is all about - Jumps?

Well, masculinity is more strongly associated with athleticism, and the jumps are considered the most athletic elements of figure skating. The "finer" elements of musicality and artistry and expression are more "feminine", though certainly not the exclusive or predominant domain of women.

Under the Western stereotype/archtype of stoic men vs. emotional women, male skaters can be perceived to be feminine when they express emotions. It doesn't help that they draw so much detail and attention to their costumes, either. Being flashy and emotional is definitely deviating from the "masculine" ideal of Western culture.

Tonichelle · Jun 2, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Tonichelle, I think a more apt comparison might be John Wayne and Montgomery Clift. I think masculinity is broad enough to encompass both, though I know others would disagree.

pardon my ignorance but who the heck is Montgomery Clift? :laugh:

ETA whenever the manly-man conversations start I'm reminded of this song.

silver.blades · Jun 2, 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Clift

Montgomery Clift was well known actor in the 50's. He's worked with a lot of the big directors of the time including Hitchcock and I know he did a film with John Wayne which is supposed to be one of the great American films.

ImaginaryPogue · Jun 2, 2011

Tonichelle said:
pardon my ignorance but who the heck is Montgomery Clift?

ETA whenever the manly-man conversations start I'm reminded of this song.

Tonichelle, man.... watch From Here to Eternity, A Place in the Sun, Red River (the film silver.blades mentioned), The Search and I Confess pronto. I'd say he's one of the greatest actors ever.

Tonichelle · Jun 2, 2011

ok I've seen his films just never knew his name :laugh:

I don't recall him EVER being discussed in film classes

ImaginaryPogue · Jun 2, 2011

Tonichelle said:
ok I've seen his films just never knew his name I don't recall him EVER being discussed in film classes

A wrong I've seen perpetuated in my own film classes.

Anyway, back to the point, I think a narrow definition of masculinity is far more harmful than helpful, whether in figure skating or in life.

FlattFan · Jun 2, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Tonichelle, I think a more apt comparison might be John Wayne and Montgomery Clift. I think masculinity is broad enough to encompass both, though I know others would disagree.

I was watching Sex and the City recently. One scene, they were talking about celebrities they would, you know, and one girl was like, "Montgomery Clift" Miranda chimed in "he was gay" girl, "oh..."
Nothing masculine about that gurrl.

ImaginaryPogue · Jun 2, 2011

....and there we go.

Tonichelle · Jun 2, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
A wrong I've seen perpetuated in my own film classes.

In all fairness he could have been mentioned when we were discussing the films and I was busy surfing golden skate instead. I'm more of a Cary Grant/Jimmy Stewart fan of the "classic Hollywood" stars... I think the only reason I know who John Wayne was, is because my grandfather is a huge Wayne collector. He has EVERY FILM on tape and DVD - even some rare bit parts Wayne had before he was a star. It's a mini museum in their home... which is cool because it's basically rustic cowboy anyway in their living room and it just translates into the collection.

but even in the AFI tribute programs a few years ago (like 100 years, 100 films) I don't remember him being mentioned...

Olympia · Jun 3, 2011

Montgomery Clift wasn't one of my favorites, but he was very magnetic. I think he specialized in hurt and somewhat brooding. I love actors (and actresses) from the classic period, too. My top faves: Cary Grant, Fred Astaire, Clark Gable. Henry Fonda is climbing fast in my estimation. (If you find photos of Fonda from his early career, you might feel as I do that this is one of the unsung Gorgeous Guys of Hollywood. He's known as a wonderful actor, of course, but he's also drop-dead wow.)

As you have all pointed out, "masculine" covers a lot of ground. The first male skater I fell in love with was John Curry. I found his 1976 Olympic long program majestic and commanding. Later I read that the British skating establishment of his time felt that he was too balletic and maybe (not my sentiment at all, so forgive me this word!) a bit sissy. Well, phooey on them: they never again had anyone as good as Curry, though Robin Cousins came close.

I suppose the Canadians as a group have been best at "guy" skating, in the sense of an unfussy but smooth (and a bit jazzy to my eye) movement style. Browning, Stojko, David Pelletier, and others. But really, that's just a small slice of masculine skating. Artur Dmitriev? (Senior, I mean...I haven't seen Junior yet.) Yagudin? Takahashi? They're not exactly wimps. The list is long, and it has your favorite skaters on it (all of you).

colleen o'neill · Jun 3, 2011

When I was about 18 or 19, I was introduced to the movies of Akira Kurosawa at our local art house theatre, and developed a massive crush on Toshiro Mifune ... does that have anything to do with the fact that I'm drawn to the skating of so many male Japanese skaters ?

( No matter how many ruffles or sequins they wear, they have a certain never say die inner masculine thing going for them.)

Elvis ? He seemed always to resist trying anything that anyone could possibly call effeminate . I guess his skating was masculine... but awfully uptight.

I always found the hip thrusting, I'm #1 attitude of Plushy and the old Brian ( greatly improved this year ) sort of a parody of masculinity. Sort of poseur-ish.

I think people make a great mistake equating masculinity only with percieved sexual preference. Toller was flamboyant , yes , but cerainly not effeminate. I can't really imagine a female skater adopting his style.

So much is in the eye of the beholder... does it come down to the skater feeling comfortable in his skin ?

OT, sort of...to go back to old film stars , Clift was a great actor , but I never felt drawn to him ( but I know many, many did ) ..anyway to Olympia's previous examples I'd like to add Mitchum , Lancaster , Quinn .. whatever that means.

seniorita · Jun 3, 2011

I dont know how many people remember it but when Plushenko was a newcomer and before the #1 type of skater and up until 2002 and while Yagudin was reigning, the latter was considered the absolute man and Plushenko's style and moves feminine, or even girl-ish. Times change..
I dont know what style is supposed Takahashi to have but I find him sexy. Is this manly enough?

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in the men?

let`s talk

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silverlake22

Joesitz (RIP)

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

evangeline

Violet Bliss

silverlake22

ImaginaryPogue

Krislite

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

silver.blades

ImaginaryPogue

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

ImaginaryPogue

FlattFan

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ImaginaryPogue

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Olympia

colleen o'neill

seniorita

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